Would SpaceX ever sell it's Rocket engines for other customers?

[fredinno]

Would SpaceX ever sell Merlins to other customers? The company would probably make even more of a fortune, selling engines for Atlas, to replace the Russian engines, and it would be available today for ULA. This would allow them to spend less money and time making Vulcan, and make a more Atlas-derived vehicle with less modifications.

I know this kind of sounds ridiculous, as they are competitors, but the thing is that Vulcan is going to use BE-4, which is the same engine that is being developed by Blue Origin to compete for the same orbital launches as ULA.

Edited October 9, 2015 by fredinno

[Gaarst]

SpaceX was actually in competition (with BO and the Russian RD-180) to power the Vulcan. I guess commercial deals and competition united BO and ULA against SpaceX. And the Russian engine was not taken because of political tensions arising between the US and Russia at the time of the choice.

Forget this, I misread an article, so this is completely false. Apologies.

Edited October 11, 2015 by Gaarst
Corrected post

[Dkmdlb]

How much you think one could buy a Merlin for? Couldn't be too much, Musk can sell 10 of them for $60 million.

[Gaarst]

A full non-recoverablt Falcon 9 costs about $60M and contains 9 Merlin (1D or 1C) on the first stage and a whole rocket above it.

So I think $60M per 10 engines would be a bit much.

Though it might be very possible that the cost increases if they are sold separately and to another company.

[Frozen_Heart]

I'm not sure who in the market would be interested. traditional designs use smaller numbers of more powerful engines rather than the Falcon 9's engine cluster.

I prefer the spacex method though. Allows for engine out capability, mass production of engines, and landing (though that last point is only relevant to SpaceX itself)

[fredinno]

I'm not sure who in the market would be interested. traditional designs use smaller numbers of more powerful engines rather than the Falcon 9's engine cluster.

I prefer the spacex method though. Allows for engine out capability, mass production of engines, and landing (though that last point is only relevant to SpaceX itself)

The basic Atlas is much smaller than the Falcon 9, and would probably actually need a smaller cluster of engines, as Atlas and Vulcan both will use SRB's to increase their payload capacities.

[Bill Phil]

It could make money. So I don't see why not...?

[FishInferno]

I don't think SpaceX would do this, mainly because they have maintained a very independent attitude (making almost everything in-house).

And going along with Frozen's point, not many people would be interested in purchasing such small engines. I do like SpaceX's setup though. They seem to have found the sweet spot between too little engines (no engine out capability) and too much engines (increased risk of failure).

[fredinno]

I don't think SpaceX would do this, mainly because they have maintained a very independent attitude (making almost everything in-house).

And going along with Frozen's point, not many people would be interested in purchasing such small engines. I do like SpaceX's setup though. They seem to have found the sweet spot between too little engines (no engine out capability) and too much engines (increased risk of failure).

SpaceX's will still be producing everything in house, they will just also be selling engines.

BTW, too many engines is not a problem for Atlas V, the Atlas V core would only need 6 engines, compared to the F-9's 9 engines.

[FishInferno]

Even so, I think it would be harder to convince ULA to buy SpaceX engines, given their history and current status...

[fredinno]

Even so, I think it would be harder to convince ULA to buy SpaceX engines, given their history and current status...

Well, in a sense, they aren't going to full be competing against SpaceX until 2020, when the current military contract expires. Most of ULA's launches involve DOD missions, not commercial sats, after all.

[Shpaget]

My life experience has taugh me that everything is for sale if the right price is offered.

Everything.

[silent_prtoagonist]

It would be a win-win for Spacex. Not only would they be getting more business, but it would increase demand for the engines, allowing them to ramp up production making the cost per engine (and thus cost per Spacex rocket) lower.

[Kryten]

Well, in a sense, they aren't going to full be competing against SpaceX until 2020, when the current military contract expires. Most of ULA's launches involve DOD missions, not commercial sats, after all.

Except SpaceX is trying to get DoD certification. In fact, right now it look like they can get certification for the basic falcon 9 for the very next DoD launch competition, so they're already competing.

[fredinno]

Except SpaceX is trying to get DoD certification. In fact, right now it look like they can get certification for the basic falcon 9 for the very next DoD launch competition, so they're already competing.

The next military competition, which won't be until 2020.

Falcon 9 already has certification, btw.

[Streetwind]

SpaceX was actually in competition (with BO and the Russian RD-180) to power the Vulcan. I guess commercial deals and competition united BO and ULA against SpaceX. And the Russian engine was not taken because of political tensions arising between the US and Russia at the time of the choice.

Do you have a source for that? This is the first I've heard of such a thing. I was always under the impression that SpaceX would follow earlier statements made during the senate hearings when the whole RD-180 vs. new American engine discussion first erupted, where they said that they had no interest in being involved in any of it.

If there's something I missed, I'd very much like to hear about it.

[Gaarst]

Do you have a source for that? This is the first I've heard of such a thing. I was always under the impression that SpaceX would follow earlier statements made during the senate hearings when the whole RD-180 vs. new American engine discussion first erupted, where they said that they had no interest in being involved in any of it.

If there's something I missed, I'd very much like to hear about it.

Sorry, you're right: I misread the article and somehow changed SpaceX being a competitor for launchers to it being in competiton for the Vulcan's engine.

Correcting my post.

[Halo_003]

Even if they did, would the design of the Merlin engines limit fuel to RP1/LOX only, or would you be able to do LH2/LOX?

[fredinno]

Even if they did, would the design of the Merlin engines limit fuel to RP1/LOX only, or would you be able to do LH2/LOX?

Probably RP-1 only. That's fine though, because we are talking about replacing the RD-180 on the Atlas V.

[Gaarst]

Even if they did, would the design of the Merlin engines limit fuel to RP1/LOX only, or would you be able to do LH2/LOX?

Probably RP-1 only. That's fine though, because we are talking about replacing the RD-180 on the Atlas V.

The current design for Vulcan involves burning CH4/LOX (Methane) in the first stage, so anyway, the engines would need to be able to burn this particular fuel, not RP-1.

I don't know if it is possible to adapt an engine such that it is able burns another fuel or if you have to redesign a brand new one.

[fredinno]

The current design for Vulcan involves burning CH4/LOX (Methane) in the first stage, so anyway, the engines would need to be able to burn this particular fuel, not RP-1.

I don't know if it is possible to adapt an engine such that it is able burns another fuel or if you have to redesign a brand new one.

My proposal was to not develop the Vulcan, and make an Atlas V, but with Merlins instead.

[GreenWolf]

I don't know if it is possible to adapt an engine such that it is able burns another fuel or if you have to redesign a brand new one.

It's not possible (or at least, it's very very difficult). Rocket engines are incredibly complex, delicate pieces of technology. If you build one to burn one type of fuel, you can only use that fuel with it. It's a bit like trying to burn diesel in a petrol engine. Except even worse.

[Rune]

My proposal was to not develop the Vulcan, and make an Atlas V, but with Merlins instead.

That's basically the equivalent of a new first stage. Merlin runs a completely different combustion cycle that burns quite less efficiently at higher TWR, so the dimensions of the first stage tankage are all wrong for it. Not to mention the plumbing will be completely different. It would be much, MUCH easier to put a centaur on top of a Falcon 9 first stage.

Rune. Which is basically what your proposal would end up being.

[magnemoe]

It would be a win-win for Spacex. Not only would they be getting more business, but it would increase demand for the engines, allowing them to ramp up production making the cost per engine (and thus cost per Spacex rocket) lower.

Its also likely that the buyer would use fewer engines in an smaller rocket and not compete directly with falcon 9.

Business is more cooperative than most people realize, Samsung makes most of the cpu in iPhones for one.

[Kryten]

It's not possible (or at least, it's very very difficult). Rocket engines are incredibly complex, delicate pieces of technology. If you build one to burn one type of fuel, you can only use that fuel with it. It's a bit like trying to burn diesel in a petrol engine. Except even worse.

It's been done quite a few times; Titan switched from RP-1/LOX to hypergols with a version of the same engine, energomash have a modified RD-180 that burns methane, KB Khinmash have run their RD-0146 on both methane and hydrogen-but not by anyone in the US, at least recently.

Its also likely that the buyer would use fewer engines in an smaller rocket and not compete directly with falcon 9.

Smaller rockets are still competing directly because of SpaceX plans for dedicated launches for small payloads, the first of which is already being set up.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Kryten