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5thHorseman

Squadcast Summary 2015/10/16 - Two Types of DC, and Two Types of ISRU

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Not sure how I feel about a smaller ISRU (and possibly drill). Right now it's a real tradeoff to include ISRU due to its mass and bulk, if it is smaller and lighter it becomes almost a no-brainer to include it on almost every vessel meant to touch down.

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I hope the smaller refinery isn't balanced against the larger one by just being slower...

Balancing against the player ability to leave computer running isn't good balance.

Maybe it should be only able to produce oxidizer, and not liquid fuel or monopropellant.

Would allow you to save mass, but wouldn't make the larger refinery useless.

I've heard that it's currently slated to not produce monoprop. That makes some sense but it doesn't impact the gameplay much. Gameplay-wise ox-only would be a bit too weak I reckon. Monoprop-only would be fun if the game had more monoprop engines.

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Could the small ISRU be balanced by making it only work above a certain concentration of ore? Then more effort is required to land at a precise location (and potentially higher dV cost)

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Not sure how I feel about a smaller ISRU (and possibly drill). Right now it's a real tradeoff to include ISRU due to its mass and bulk, if it is smaller and lighter it becomes almost a no-brainer to include it on almost every vessel meant to touch down.

You'd probably still need to lug around a heavy drill (if they don't make a small drill). Also, having a large ISRU would mean that converting is faster.

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The fact the new smaller ISRU tends to produce more heat and is slower means it is balancing somewhat. My heavy truck has one ISRU and two fuel cell arrays, a small ore tank and one drill. I don't need a single solar panel as I can drill and convert at the same time.

Didn't need a single radiator.

I hope fuel cells will start to produce heat as well, just like they do in real life. It's already a boolean in ModuleResourceConverter, I've played with it and it works fine.

And I really hoped for "Two Types of Direct Current", because I feel the current system of electrics is too simple.

Edited by Azimech

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I don't see time as much of a balancing factor, there's not much penalty for just timewarping until refuelling operations are complete. I guess the question might become: Why ever use the big ISRU?

Heat might be interesting, where did you hear that the smaller one will produce more heat, Azimech?

Very curious how both parts will be made useful in different scenarios.

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Here ya go.

https://www.reddit.com/r/KerbalSpaceProgram/comments/3p24n2/new_miniisru_for_105/cw2hfrz

What would be nice for a future gameplay element is wear and tear on ISRU's and fuel cells.

In real life everything degrades over time, with use or both. It would be logical an ISRU degrades fast, and a smaller one even more due to increased complexity. I imagine they have mills to reduce ore grains to a very fine dust, having filters, channels, valves and centrifuges to split different types of matter before going into chemical processing.

A small adaptation on ModuleResourceConverter with a cumulative timer and small formula would work and be fun.

It could degrade even faster if you let it running at a high temperature, then the player could start to plan in advance: variables like time needed for mission/allowed vehicle (mass/size/cost) /number of needed refueling stops/allowed time per refueling stop.

Not only that, engineer stats could have a direct influence on how quickly ISRU's/fuel cells degrade and their operating temperature.

Edited by Azimech

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I like that 1.25m resource converter! I always thought the other one was too big...

I always thought it was too small and light given what it enables...

Not sure how I feel about a smaller ISRU (and possibly drill). Right now it's a real tradeoff to include ISRU due to its mass and bulk, if it is smaller and lighter it becomes almost a no-brainer to include it on almost every vessel meant to touch down.

Yea... I have the same concern.

I'm not sure how I feel about heat though...

If the ship is solar powered... and its in a place where the sun is not strong enough to cause ships to overheat, then assuming it operates at a stable electric charge, it shouldn't overheat... that would be breaking laws of physics.

If its draining battery rapidly, then fine.... but I still worry.

The previous ISRU was a glorified heater.

* Turn it on

* It overheats in a short period of time

* It stops producing resources, but continues to produce heat.

* The only way to use it was to manually stop and restart it many many many many many many many times. Timewarping just timewarped at the heat-saturated no output state.

It had better not act like this again.

Also... I don't want it to semi-break my saves.. ie all my ISRU operations become useless because they lack radiators.

If the large ISRU doesn't overheat, but the small one does... that may be ok

For that matter... they need to fix the rotating radiators - which can cause you to overheat when close to the sun, unlrdd you manually orient your ship so that the radiators would be edge on to the sun when they aren't rotated (ie just before retracting/after deploying them)

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the "Female Kerbals Ragdoll" bug not being fixed is frustrating to a person who uses KIS and KAS for pretty much everything, I don't like to see Val sliding down a hill on minmus at even the slightest provocation.

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I'm concerned too about the direction where stock ISRU is going. And it's going to ISRU mods approach - slap a drill on everything and drill your way to Eeloo. That's not good.

ISRU belongs to permanent structures or some oversized capital vessels.

Hopefully, we won't get any black magic ore-propelled engines. That'll be utter embarrassment. :mad:

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Solution for a kerbal ragdolling down a hill:

Press Alt-F12

Click "Hack Gravity"

Stabilize your kerbal.

Click "Unhack Gravity"

You're done!

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Solution for a kerbal ragdolling down a hill:

Press Alt-F12

Click "Hack Gravity"

Stabilize your kerbal.

Click "Unhack Gravity"

You're done!

Cheating is not a bugfix.

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"Cheating" is a concept which only exists when you're competing with others.

This is a practical solution.

And seeing the enormous list of bugfixes and requests Squad already has, I consider this to be at the lowest priority possible, because there's an easy fix.

Oh I got ninja'd.

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"Cheating" is a concept which only exists when you're competing with others.

This is a practical solution.

And seeing the enormous list of bugfixes and requests Squad already has, I consider this to be at the lowest priority possible, because there's an easy fix.

Oh I got ninja'd.

'No cheating in single-player' approach, huh? Cheating is altering rules in your favour and exists regardless of number of players.

Back to the topic: flag in KSC resetting to default is low-priority and it's getting fixed. Wonky physic behaviour in a physic-based game is not.

Regarding hack gravity 'fix' - hack gravity, everything starts floating, unhack - nearby rover lands and breaks wheels. Boom - mission ruined. 'Fix' is not that good. :wink:

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I'm concerned too about the direction where stock ISRU is going. And it's going to ISRU mods approach - slap a drill on everything and drill your way to Eeloo. That's not good.

As am I to be honest. The point of balance is to force trade-offs. If a part is just better than all other solutions in almost every situation it becomes a no-brainer and effectively limits design opportunities. ISRU really should be large and heavy so that its not just something you slap on every mission. I'm cool with a more compact converter so long as its still quite heavy, and has some other really significant balance mechanism.

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Well that depends how long you're willing to wait. Gravity is changed to that on Gilly, so if you wait half a minute, everything will be back down. And since there's no wind in KSP, everything will stay where it is.

The moment they introduce wind on planets with atmo, yeah then this won't work anymore.

I started to use this after I started to lose crew members on my Elcano challenge. Repairing wheels was most often needed in the mountains on slopes, and my kerbals usually had to jump off to get to them.

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'No cheating in single-player' approach, huh? Cheating is altering rules in your favour and exists regardless of number of players.

Except you can't alter rules in your favor if there is no one competing with you.

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Don't like it. It would be yet another time based mechanic in a game with Time Warp. Same reason I don't like Life Support.

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Except you can't alter rules in your favor if there is no one competing with you.

So, if you are playing solitaire or something, there are no rules at all?

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Don't like it. It would be yet another time based mechanic in a game with Time Warp. Same reason I don't like Life Support.

Could be a difficulty toggle. There's got to be a trade-off somewhere for gameplay reasons. And the difference with life support is: it only degrades when you use it. The reason in certain RPG's I wouldn't use my gun if I could sneak on someone and use my knife, because every shot made the gun slightly worse.

So, if you are playing solitaire or something, there are no rules at all?

Ultimately you're only challenging yourself.

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So, if you are playing solitaire or something, there are no rules at all?

Only those you impose on yourself, and if you alter the rules you impose on yourself you are simply imposing a different set of rules. It's still not cheating.

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