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Kyrt Malthorn

1.0.5 Buoyancy! What sinks?

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Have you made anything that floats yet? Sinks yet? Something that has some kind of ballast control? Something that didn't operate as expected in water?

Any rules of thumb for estimating volume, so that given the mass we can guess at buoyancy?

Let's pool our experiences and start launching stock ships, seaplanes, and submarines! :)

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Full ore tanks and structural parts like girders and beams seem to be the key to making things sink. I've had some promising results with ore tanks, a bunch of large ones for main ballast and then some smaller ones for fine-tuning (the dump ore function is all-or-nothing on each tank).

Pic because it's fun :)

screenshot2.png

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Full ore tanks and structural parts like girders and beams seem to be the key to making things sink. I've had some promising results with ore tanks, a bunch of large ones for main ballast and then some smaller ones for fine-tuning (the dump ore function is all-or-nothing on each tank).

Pic because it's fun :)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/61004449/KSP/1.0.5/screenshot2.png

This is what the future looks like. Good work RIC.

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Well, Kasper told me before the update that the oceans in Eve had a diferent density of the Kerbin ones. So, I can add a question: what sinks on Eve ? :D

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I wonder if a Deep Flight idea (wings and thrust to counter buoyancy, stop and you float) would work.

It should. Piloting a sub feels a lot like a plane from the bit of playing with them I've done.

Well, Kasper told me before the update that the oceans in Eve had a diferent density of the Kerbin ones. So, I can add a question: what sinks on Eve ? :D

I haven't been there yet, but apparently Eve's oceans are 1.5x as dense so should offer 1.5x the buoyancy.

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Full ore tanks and structural parts like girders and beams seem to be the key to making things sink. I've had some promising results with ore tanks, a bunch of large ones for main ballast and then some smaller ones for fine-tuning (the dump ore function is all-or-nothing on each tank).

Pic because it's fun :)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/61004449/KSP/1.0.5/screenshot2.png

I saw that! That's what inspired me to start experimenting with this stuff.

So I cobbled together a rover with a seperator crane arm in front and a counterweight in the back, that can drive over to the ocean and drop things to perform experiments.

My first such was my first undersea probe. "Seesea 1" had one of the new Juno engines, a fuel tank and air intake sized to it, a tiny probe core, a couple RTGs to keep it alive, and a couple of airbrakes. As has already been suggested here, "reverse flight" does work perfectly. Also, although Seesea was buoyant enough to ascend at a very respectable 5-7 m/s, deploying the airbrakes brought that ascent to about 0.5. Looks like aerodynamic hydrodynamic drag will be a very useful tool. This also agrees with what's already been suggested in this thread about "flying underwater".

My tendency to want to fly up as one would in a plane, however... that was hard to conquer.

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Oh, darn it. I was hoping cupolas would sink, being a very heavy single kerbal command pod... and rather looking the part of a submersible window, eh? No matter!

Hey! Can anyone figure out how to make a propeller? I know I've seen things with awkward stock bearings, and maybe other exploitable spinny things. They seem way beyond me, but it would be a darn shame if the buoyancy models drag, but "stock helicopter" type designs were impossible to use as submerged propulsion.

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Does "flying" into the water at a substantial speed (20-40m/s) also cause a craft to dive under or will it just slam against the water like it used to?

If the reverse-flight principle works with that, we could be looking at some really interesting dive-bombing aircraft.

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Does "flying" into the water at a substantial speed (20-40m/s) also cause a craft to dive under or will it just slam against the water like it used to?

If the reverse-flight principle works with that, we could be looking at some really interesting dive-bombing aircraft.

I breached the submarine I showed earlier, what was a safe speed underwater caused it to break up on impact with the water. Might just have been that the impact wasn't squarely head on, haven't done much more testing with it.

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Full ore tanks and structural parts like girders and beams seem to be the key to making things sink. I've had some promising results with ore tanks, a bunch of large ones for main ballast and then some smaller ones for fine-tuning (the dump ore function is all-or-nothing on each tank).

Pic because it's fun :)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/61004449/KSP/1.0.5/screenshot2.png

One day this... on Eve and Laythe. :)

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Attempted to weigh down a rover to see if it was feasible to drive on the ocean floor. My rover wasn't nearly heavy enough, even with ore tanks in cargo bays. So I strapped a big ore tank to the back.

q0M97ab.jpg

And the moral of this story is: CoM goes down.

Also, need moar mass.

Gosh, you'd think if you drove a CAR into the water, it would sink, right? Right?! What does it take to sink a tank in KSP!

I get it that crew cabins and rocket fuel are less dense than water. But even with heavy ore tanks this wouldn't go down. I wonder which is less realistic: the density of kerbal structural parts, or the buoyancy settings.

Edited by Kyrt Malthorn

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I wonder if a Deep Flight idea (wings and thrust to counter buoyancy, stop and you float) would work.

This was the first thing I did, land a plane on the sea & then shove it's nose down. It works just like that, although there's some rather odd things going on when you climb or dive ( but then again stock aero also is not terribly good there either ). Parachutes work fine underwater too.

@Kyrt Malthorn: cars don't sink unless you open the doors ( or the seals are leaky ), they're mostly air inside. Go check video from a tsunami & you'll see cars bobbing around all over the place.

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Can somebody test out the buoyancy of the Mk.1 Cockpit? Somebody over in my submarine challenge crashed his sub on the bottom of the ocean. The debris floated away, but the pod stayed on the bottom. It might have been a bug, but it's worth investigating.

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If ore tanks fully loaded sink as ballast tanks...

Then someone might want to try doing what I do with jet turbines on my locomotives

The alternator line on an engine configuration file can be modified to generate seemingly any resource.. Mine generate monopropellant for my traction motors

For a submarine though modding any engines alternator to generate ore thats fed into tanks when its turned on would most likely make it sink... Dumping the ore might make it float again..

Im on my phone so I cant try it but I cant see why it wouldnt work?

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Sure... I'd make a new resource called "ballast" to prevent abuse.. but it should work... you can just have a generator that you can turn on or off as well, no need for an alternator on an engine.

My question is if there are appropriate hydrodynamic effects with the control surfaces... or do the control/aerosurfaces just continue to act as if they are in air?

Since the atmospheric density no longer follows a straight logarithmic decay... can the curve be altered with enough precision that the air density will suddenly get much much higher once below the water's surface?

If there are appropriate hydrodynamics.. maybe this is done already? or did they do it another way?

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It should. Piloting a sub feels a lot like a plane from the bit of playing with them I've done.

I haven't been there yet, but apparently Eve's oceans are 1.5x as dense so should offer 1.5x the buoyancy.

What about Laythe's oceans?

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Sure... I'd make a new resource called "ballast" to prevent abuse.. but it should work... you can just have a generator that you can turn on or off as well, no need for an alternator on an engine.

My question is if there are appropriate hydrodynamic effects with the control surfaces... or do the control/aerosurfaces just continue to act as if they are in air?

Since the atmospheric density no longer follows a straight logarithmic decay... can the curve be altered with enough precision that the air density will suddenly get much much higher once below the water's surface?

If there are appropriate hydrodynamics.. maybe this is done already? or did they do it another way?

It seems to use the atmosphere's lift.

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Has anyone tried going under the ice caps yet, or know if it's possible?

I'll give it a go when I get chance.

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I built a hydroplane and that seems to work, so I imagine wings underwater would to.

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Has anyone tried going under the ice caps yet, or know if it's possible?

I'll give it a go when I get chance.

The ice caps are basically a cliff that rises up from the bottom of the ocean to the level of the ice fields. There's no 'under' to go to, unfortunately

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I built a hydroplane and that seems to work, so I imagine wings underwater would to.

Bu at say... -100m... do the wings and hydroplanes act as if they are in a dense fluid, or just sea level air density?

After all, the jets and intakes function as if they are in still air.

I can tell that the water slows things down... but does it make the lifting surfaces produce more lift?

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The ice caps are basically a cliff that rises up from the bottom of the ocean to the level of the ice fields. There's no 'under' to go to, unfortunately

Thought that might be the case. Oh well, never mind, undersea ice caves would be quite a 'cool' place to visit.

Thanks

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Bu at say... -100m... do the wings and hydroplanes act as if they are in a dense fluid, or just sea level air density?

They act like they're in air, but air 100m below sea level. Higher pressure air. I assume.

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It seems to use the atmosphere's lift.

Exactly, although the drag model acts more like the 0.90 souposphere than as a drag model like in the air. Essentially water is modeled as very thick atmosphere now.

I do find it funny that the most important thing for a lot of people in the 1.0.5 update, is they can finally try and make stuff sink. In a spaceship simulator. ;)

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