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EU guides and how they clear things up.


Brethern

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I'm assuming that most people here are familiar with the star wars guides to vehicles and warfare and such, well got the essential guide to warfare today and read the section on endor.

Now Unless you've been living under a rock you've probably heard of the storm trooper marksmenship and the fact they got beaten by ewoks. The marksmanship is simple to explain they were ordered to let them go. However the ewok situation was harder to explain.

Basically what I gleaned is that the only reason why the ewoks won is because they out numbered the imperials something crazy like 1000 to 1, they probably also realized that if they failed here they would probably all die anyways, so it's a sacrifice a million to save a billion scenario.

What we've seen in the film was simply put rebel propaganda they wanted to show primitives standing up to the empire, and winning, ignoring the fact that what really happened was the rebels used the ewoks as a meat shield while they picked off storm troopers from cover. I'll admit that the whole bow and arrow vs storm trooper armor is hard to swallow, but I'm willing to give it a pass if we assume it was the exception not the norm.

So what other things have made more sense after reading EU material.

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Hmmm...

Yeah, but the ewoks destroyed, yes, DESTROYED, an AT-ST with logs. Logs. Just logs. How can that happen unless the Empire is truly incompetent?

In fact, I don't think there were that many rebels on the planet during that battle. They had to use an Imperial code to land without getting killed, so only Han's team was there. Which means that Ewoks are superior to Storm Troopers.

Perhaps it has to do with the huge size of the Empire, and their lack of money, so they had to focus on the Death Stars meaning that corners had to be cut.

And I recall that the Empire's tactics often employed outnumbering as a common tactic.

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Hmmm...

Yeah, but the ewoks destroyed, yes, DESTROYED, an AT-ST with logs. Logs. Just logs. How can that happen unless the Empire is truly incompetent?

In fact, I don't think there were that many rebels on the planet during that battle. They had to use an Imperial code to land without getting killed, so only Han's team was there. Which means that Ewoks are superior to Storm Troopers.

Perhaps it has to do with the huge size of the Empire, and their lack of money, so they had to focus on the Death Stars meaning that corners had to be cut.

And I recall that the Empire's tactics often employed outnumbering as a common tactic.

Keep in mind that the AT ST is a scout walker, it's designed to out flank and recon positions, meaning it's fast and lightly armored a log can weight over a ton, plus newtons laws come into play meaning it's not impossible.

Also the rebel team was hand picked by Han Solo who is a fairly smart person, he most likely picked people who were suited for that sort of terrain and crack shots. They wouldn't have needed allot to win.

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Keep in mind that the AT ST is a scout walker, it's designed to out flank and recon positions, meaning it's fast and lightly armored a log can weight over a ton, plus newtons laws come into play meaning it's not impossible.

Also the rebel team was hand picked by Han Solo who is a fairly smart person, he most likely picked people who were suited for that sort of terrain and crack shots. They wouldn't have needed allot to win.

Except that there was a whole base on Endor. A huge number of soldiers.

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Except that there was a whole base on Endor. A huge number of soldiers.
Actually we can estimate the number of soldiers.

The emperor stated that an entire legion of troops were on the surface. according to supplementary info that's roughly 8000 troops.

We don't know the number of ewoks, and since star wars isn't big on real math and science it's impossible to calculate, all we can assume is that they had enough numbers to absorb losses.

Which is why the idea that what we are seeing is rebel propaganda makes sense. The ewoks did help but they probably took heavy losses.

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Something else to take into consideration is that the movie didn't show us the entire Ewok/Imperial engagement.

We didn't see the Ewoks actually win in the movie. You guys are simply assuming they won. What we saw was the Ewoks distracting the Imperial troops so the rebels could get into the shield generator and set them up the bomb.

When the shield array went up in a great big fireball, every Imperial soldier in the vicinity saw it. Shortly afterwards, when the Death Star Mk. 2 went up in a much bigger and cheesier-looking fireball, every Imperial soldier on the PLANET saw that. Immediately the Imperials realized they had screwed up big time, immediately-after-that realized that their chances of getting Force-choked to death were much lower if they were captured by the Rebels, and immediately-after-immediately-after-that, surrendered.

Those parts was cut from the final script. :huh:

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However, using our history as a guide, this does not stand up. Throughout history on earth, primitively armed hunter gatherers do not beat, even small numbers well armed soldiers of an advanced society. One of the best examples (but definitely not only) is the Spanish conquest the Inca's. In short, a ridiculously small number of Conquistadors, I can't remember the exact number, but no more than a couple of hundred, broke the Incan empire. (Incan's were not hunter gathers, but it still demonstrates how small numbers of Advanced vs Large numbers of Less Advanced does not work out well for the less advanced.)

So in history is was Pizzaro (?) with around 160 infantry, twenty odd cavalry and one cannon, vs, 80,000 Incas. The Spanish won hands down (also helps they were caught by surprise). (Thanks Wikipedia)

Although, perhaps you could argue that the Rebels acted as a circuit breaker. Perhaps the Conquistadors would not have been as successful if say a highly experienced unit of British Musketeers were advising Atahualpa (the Incan king). You know, maybe saying something like "Its a Trap" :wink:... It may have changed things.

Maybe a different result if say Pizzaros 180 vs 80, 000 Incas and 12 British Musketeers.

Ok, I've talked myself around, possibly the involvement of the Rebels tipped the balance.

Edited by Tourist
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1> Storm troopers did not see the Ewoks as a treat, making it easy for Ewoks to get into favourable positions with stealth/camouflage.

2>Ewoks were blood thirsty savages without a fear of death because divine presence of CP3O/god.

2b> Ewoks saw Storm troopers as meat = confirming blessing of god/CP3O.

- - - Updated - - -

Tourist: Your not thinking of Hernán Cortés (1485 – December 2, 1547) against the Aztec??

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Tourist: Your not thinking of Hernán Cortés (1485 – December 2, 1547) against the Aztec??

Definitely the Incans (thanks again Wikipedia!), but the Aztecs fate is also a very good example.

Compared to the Ewoks, the Incans and Aztecs even had a relative advantage, in that they had very organised societies, some degree of agriculture and technological development. What do the Ewoks have, they are stone age hunter gatherers, tribal level of organisation... although they do have nifty tree houses.

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Lucas intended the Battle of Endor to be reminiscent of Vietnam. It is supposed to portray how a weaker force can fight an overwhelmingly stronger occupant by using guerilla tactics.

There are plenty of examples in History where informal and less equipped combattants have defeated or even pushed off a stronger occupation force. They have the advantage of knowing the terrain, support from the population, and being able to hide among civilians. Examples: Vietnam of course, Afghans against the Soviet army, French resistance against the Wehrmacht, Iraqi insurgeants against the US military, and pretty much every colonial war in the 20th century.

These "assymetrical conflicts" are pretty much dominant today. They don't always provide a clear military victory, but the harrassment ends up exhausting the occupier's resources and makes the situation so untenable that have to withdraw in the end.

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Definitely the Incans (thanks again Wikipedia!), but the Aztecs fate is also a very good example.

Compared to the Ewoks, the Incans and Aztecs even had a relative advantage, in that they had very organised societies, some degree of agriculture and technological development. What do the Ewoks have, they are stone age hunter gatherers, tribal level of organisation... although they do have nifty tree houses.

Quote from the essential guide of warfare.
We were on the endor moon for nine months... Our survey teams discovered indigenes... primitive spears and slings and living in tree houses, we paid them no mind, they didn't seem inclined to cause problems begging or stealing things... that would have lead to an excision within a defined perimeter.. they seemed afraid of use they didn't like approaching the shield generator and we didn't think we'd be staying long enough for them to get acclimated and become a problem.

This is the biggest thing right here. They didn't think they would be a problem, that means the ewok scouts had free reign to scout anything. they wanted, they were also on the moon for nine months. They didn't appear to try and exterminate them.

What this adds up to is that unlike the inca and aztecs the ewoks had time to study them, and once the rebels came they had a chance to help.

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