I am never going back to Moho.

[cantab]

[quote name='Archgeek']I am going to miss these spoiler tags if the new forum lacks an analogue to them.[/QUOTE]If you want to hide images it's better for readers if you link them anyway, If they're spoilered my web browser will still download them whether or not I open the spoiler; if I'm on my phone that's a waste of mobile data.

[Archgeek]

[quote name='cantab']If you want to hide images it's better for readers if you link them anyway, If they're spoilered my web browser will still download them whether or not I open the spoiler; if I'm on my phone that's a waste of mobile data.[/QUOTE]
To each their own, it seems -- I use them to de-clutter a page and reduce scrolling, and actually find it quite annoying to have to derp off to another website to view an image meant to be part of a forum post. 'Kinda curious that they don't use an ajax script to load spoilered images on demand instead (with a profile option to load 'em anyway, in case the delay vexes desktop users with slow internet).

[Geschosskopf]

[quote name='herbal space program']....With a series of carefully calculated burns, it’s then possible to set up a succession of Moho encounters to gradually walk down a ladder of ever-lower resonant orbits.....[/quote]

This right here is something a lot of folks never even consider. Everybody's in the habit of circularizing on the 1st encounter and calling it done, and thus have an instinctive fear that if they don't manage to capture on this opportunity, they'll be thrown out into some gawdawful solar orbit from which they'll never return. But usually, with just a minmum of care taken in tweaking your Pe on an encounter, and paying attention to what your path looks like on the other side, you can make for all kinds of fuel savings this way. Not just a Moho but anywhere else. At the expense of the elapsed mission time required to make multiple solar orbits. But at Moho, you get the best of both worlds with the multi-encounter braking technique. You get very significant dV savings and going around the sun at Moho's distance doesn't take very long so no real harm done on the mission time.

[Aethon]

[IMG]http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/531745346204331810/40DBB83848CD49D6C5A7E0F5E68064FCF22F42C6/[/IMG]



I try not to over build ships. Smarter is better than wrangling some huge monstrosity around the solar system. This ship was my Moho explorer in a previous version. It's not cheap, only because the science gear is expensive. The part on the front is a system shuttle that kicks the Moho explorer payload out of the Kerbin system. It then undocks and returns to Kerbin for aerobrake/refuel/reuse. Moho explorer includes two Scansats (one for Kerbol), a lander with full science suit, and an exploratory rover.



[IMG]http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/531748876017389197/D3640CF3B0D336942549C532E3A626A6A4F7DAC9/[/IMG]

[LadyAthena]

Yea I learned the hard way how much of a trap it is..

Small body, low gravity, plenty of transfer windows, perfect I thought. Way better than Eeloo or Duna right? right?... Aha.. boy was I wrong..

[Warzouz]

(bad) Moho recipe :

"When you've built your ship to go to Moho, double its dV"

[Hannu]

[quote name='Warzouz'](bad) Moho recipe :

"When you've built your ship to go to Moho, double its dV"[/QUOTE]

This is bad option. Fortunately there are also a better one.

Dv needed from Kerbin's orbit to Moho's orbit is very sensitive to even minimal errors. Typically very small error (even 1 m/s) after MOI burn can not be seen in map view, but it may increase needed dv to Moho orbit insertion with 1000 m/s. Therefore there are often nasty surprises in Moho's SOI. If player does not want to use Mechjeb or other precision node adjusting mods, then only solution is to put 1500-2500 m/s extra dv for breaking. I think it is impossible or at least impractically laborious to adjust orbit with stock maneuver nodes. If player accepts mods, he can achieve near minimal energy transfers predicted by porkchop plotters. Orbit must be very carefully correct. I have noticed that AP and PE values of transfer orbit around sun are relatively good indicators. Map windows give often encounters even if they are not accurate, but then typically dv needed to orbit insertion is much higher than on exact trajectory.

Some Porkchop plotters does may not take patched conics model into account (I do not know current situation, it was several versions ago when I was on Moho). It causes errors in components of predicted burn. Leaving of Kerbin's SOI gives free energy, which corresponds to tens of m/s on prograde burn (depending on burn's magnitude). If map view does not show transfer orbit with correct apses it is good idea to decrease few m/s and try to get correct values by adjusting the departure time with 1-5 s steps.

It is difficult to get correct burn with very low TWR or from very low orbit. I use 300 km orbit and at least 3 m/s^3 acceleration. Even then I need correction after ejection burn and couple of corrections during course. I suspect also that there are some errors in orbit calculations. Possibly false SOI detections. My orbit have changed several times erroneously during coast when I have maneuvered other crafts. It happens when I go from outer planet to inner planet. Maybe about 2 flights per 100. These errors are typically not fatal except with Moho. I do not know if they are fixed or not, but I have not heard about it and trajectory mechanics seems to be unaltered since very long time ago.

[Warzouz]

I know, I know, that was a joke. As I said before, I've been several times to Moho. Not a big deal. I like sending big stuff to LKO.

When we go to Moho, we usually have a quite big inclination change dV and a very big capture burn. Those don't have to be precise burns, so low TWR is a good option. [OK, reasonably low TWR for capture, Moho SOI is small]

Only the escape burn should be precise and a high TWR is preferable for "not high killed" players as I am.

So building a quite high TWR in such condition is not much harder.

On the other hand, it's possible to wait for a better encounter with a cheaper dV. but As I don't like to wait, I usually go for the first window and pack fuel for it. As I recover the launch stage (up to 600 tons payloads), price per ton to LKO is very low.


But you're right to say that the stock node user interface is not precise enough to get to Moho in good condition. A node edition tool (precise node or MJ node editor) helps A LOT. The simple fact you can't easily access and edit a Kerbin node while focusing on another body is a non-sense. It seems the user-unfriendliness of the interface is sometimes was intended.

As for error calculation, I'm not experienced enough to find them, but I'm used to replot every node after leaving SOI. I never noticed huge variations

[Thanny]

Getting to Moho is easy. Staying there is a bit harder. Returning is difficult.

I managed the first two not long after I got the game (0.23.5), with no mods, using the only method that came to mind - leave the SOI of Kerbin, then use maneuver nodes with the next-orbit button to find a Moho intercept. I had managed to get out of Moho's SOI, but needed to send a rescue ship with a claw to retrieve the science I had collected. That was an interesting exercise in and of itself.

[fairy]

I usually just slingshot the probe/craft in front of (on the daytime side) either Jupiter or Mars so that the relative velocity to the Sun is a lot slower after leaving either of the planets SOI. Then after leaving the SOI you just need 1 or 2 small correction burns to have the probe/craft intersect with the target planet. Doing it this way is a lot more fuel efficient compared to a direct transfer from Earth.

Yes I play in RSS, but this will work in the stock Kerbol system as well.

[Warzouz]

Returning is very easy if you have refueling capacity at Moho.

[cantab]

[quote name='Warzouz']When we go to Moho, we usually have a quite big inclination change dV and a very big capture burn. Those don't have to be precise burns, so low TWR is a good option. [OK, reasonably low TWR for capture, Moho SOI is small][/QUOTE]If I remember rightly on my Moho trip I did a "pre-capture" burn a few hours before even entering Moho's SOI, to slow the ship down so I didn't go sailing on through.

[Warzouz]

[quote name='cantab']If I remember rightly on my Moho trip I did a "pre-capture" burn a few hours before even entering Moho's SOI, to slow the ship down so I didn't go sailing on through.[/QUOTE]
Yes I did that too : I had 2 missions to Moho (a space station and the return vehicle + lander). Missions departed at 2 days interval. I plotted course manually (using precise node like tool). Ships arrived in Moho SOI within [B][COLOR="#B22222"]5[/COLOR][/B] minutes (!) and PE capture was 35 minutes away and lasts 15 min each (IIRC) because of low TWR. "Houston we have a problem"...

As soon as I figured that, I did a partial retro burn for one of the ships to delay its capture node. That's when I planned the PE too close to Moho and nearly crashed into it before having time to capture... I ended with a orbit passing through Moho, but I couldn't wait until AP, because I had another ship to capture. Hopefully, I always plan for the worst, so I had fuel for a quick and inefficient corrective burn.

Finally all went well :D

It wasn't the first time I got there, but that was my first real manned mission.

[IMG]http://tof.canardpc.com/view/b88bc9d5-73e3-4257-8b5c-7b36c4746567.jpg[/IMG]

[herbal space program]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000] [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT="Arial"][COLOR=#000000]After working away at it for like 5 hours last night, I’m pretty sure I can just edge out Metaphor’s record of 1700dV from LKO-LMO (if I don’t run out of patience), but it really is quite a pain in the end that should not point towards space. The whole key will be finding a path around Eve that is close enough to the Moho ascending node to minimize subsequent plane correction, but still intersects Moho’s orbit in a way that generates an encounter with minimal additional dV. Right now, I’m hitting Moho’s orbit at almost exactly 2:1 but 90 degrees out of phase with it. That unfortunately puts me in a spot where I need to burn for a good 250m/s to get an encounter even 5-6 orbits later. Doing that last night, I was actually able to hop down the next four resonant orbits: 11:6, 9:5, 7:4, and 5:3 for under 80m/s total (!). Going up to 12 orbits, I’ve now plotted 13 more resonant energy levels I could hit on the way down to Moho insertion. I’m pretty sure that with enough patience, I can find a similarly cheap path through those that wlll leave me with a trivial insertion burn, albeit 15 years after leaving Kerbin. As my current save stands, in 5:3 resonance with 1580dV expended, I think I could make LMO for around 1900 total, which is pretty darn good, but to beat Metaphor I’ll need to nail that first Eve encounter…[/COLOR][/FONT]

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[AeroGav]

Thanks to this thread I knew to build a super lightweight vessel, probe core and command chair only, no wait...

[URL=http://s1144.photobucket.com/user/narostel/media/2015-11-24_00025_zpsxkqmb0mt.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/o492/narostel/2015-11-24_00025_zpsxkqmb0mt.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

This is Kerbalstar Galactica, and I cleared out the astronaut complex to fill it. Hitchhiker module, commander cupola, Mk 2 lander can and mobile processing lab, all the modules i never use.

Let's hope Ion drive is up to the task.

If this works i'm bringing a mark 3 spaceplane next time. Still unsure whether to cover it in solar panels or put some IRSU on there and have it suck every celestial body between here and destination dry.

[herbal space program]

[quote name='cantab']If I remember rightly on my Moho trip I did a "pre-capture" burn a few hours before even entering Moho's SOI, to slow the ship down so I didn't go sailing on through.[/QUOTE]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000] [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Calibri][COLOR=#000000]Since Mojo’s gravity is so feeble compared to the high velocities down there, the Oberth effect really doesn’t do much for you. So once your orbit is tangent to Moho’s, you can basically burn retrograde at the point of tangency until you’re at a period that’s 3:2 relative to Moho’s plus half the time it will take Moho to next reach that same spot. That will quite substantially reduce your capture burn when you encounter Moho on the next go-round.[/COLOR][/FONT]
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[aluc24]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned on this thread already, but the main problem with Moho transfer is that Kerbin and Moho has high relative inclination. You can make a fairly cheap transfer burn, but capture burns are usually insane.

The solution: burn at Ascending Node until your Kerbol periapsis reaches Moho orbit, even if it doesn't intercept it. Then coast to periapsis, and adjust apoapsis so that you intercept Moho after a number of orbits around Kerbol. Capture burn will be quite cheap. Same goes for return to Kerbin. The downside is that this might take many years. The upside is that you can do it with around 4000m/s in total (one way).

[kiwi1960]

Not having been to Moho since way way before .90 and not recently... this is how I would do it (and I stopped reading the replies after the 6th post of so...)

Send fuel ships ahead of you first.... park them in orbit. Simple, problem solved... or better yet, seeing as this happened after .90 .... a lander capable of drilling for ore and a refining unit...

If Moho was easy.... then what is the point. Sure, what I said was simplistic... nothing is easy... not even for NASA in getting to Pluto... but they did that!!!

if KSP was too easy, people would have tired of it ages ago,

[PLAD]

[quote name='herbal space program'][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000] [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT="Arial"][COLOR=#000000]After working away at it for like 5 hours last night, I’m pretty sure I can just edge out Metaphor’s record of 1700dV from LKO-LMO (if I don’t run out of patience), but it really is quite a pain in the end that should not point towards space. The whole key will be finding a path around Eve that is close enough to the Moho ascending node to minimize subsequent plane correction, but still intersects Moho’s orbit in a way that generates an encounter with minimal additional dV. Right now, I’m hitting Moho’s orbit at almost exactly 2:1 but 90 degrees out of phase with it. That unfortunately puts me in a spot where I need to burn for a good 250m/s to get an encounter even 5-6 orbits later. Doing that last night, I was actually able to hop down the next four resonant orbits: 11:6, 9:5, 7:4, and 5:3 for under 80m/s total (!). Going up to 12 orbits, I’ve now plotted 13 more resonant energy levels I could hit on the way down to Moho insertion. I’m pretty sure that with enough patience, I can find a similarly cheap path through those that wlll leave me with a trivial insertion burn, albeit 15 years after leaving Kerbin. As my current save stands, in 5:3 resonance with 1580dV expended, I think I could make LMO for around 1900 total, which is pretty darn good, but to beat Metaphor I’ll need to nail that first Eve encounter…[/COLOR][/FONT]

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I find your post most intriguing. As one of the entrants that Metaphor beat so soundly in[URL="http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/74375-Lowest-Delta-v-to-Moho"] that challenge[/URL], I've often thought about how to beat his score. I determined when Eve crosses Moho's orbital plane, my plan was to find a Kerbin departure that arrives at Eve at one of those times, and then use the double-flyby path and then Messenger-style braking to get to Moho cheaply. Unfortunately I found that if you arrive at Eve with the lowest possible energy from Kerbin, you do not have enough energy to get flung to Moho's orbit without more burning. And the windows are so tight that you can count on needing many orbits of the sun between the second Eve flyby and the first Moho flyby, so I can't use my applications to figure them out.
I sometimes consider a new 'lowest-dv-to..' type challenge for all the planets, but we'd have to agreed on a standard start orbit at Kerbin and final orbit at the target (or go surface-to surface like the old challenge). In any case I'd love to see your solution for a low-dV trip to Moho, especially if it beats Metaphor's!

[Alshain]

I don't get why Moho is considered so difficult. If you take a round trip, including landing on the surface, and returning... Moho is really not that bad. Laythe is worse, and it's one of the most beloved locations to visit.

[herbal space program]

[quote name='PLAD']I find your post most intriguing. As one of the entrants that Metaphor beat so soundly in[URL="http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/74375-Lowest-Delta-v-to-Moho"] that challenge[/URL], I've often thought about how to beat his score. I determined when Eve crosses Moho's orbital plane, my plan was to find a Kerbin departure that arrives at Eve at one of those times, and then use the double-flyby path and then Messenger-style braking to get to Moho cheaply. Unfortunately I found that if you arrive at Eve with the lowest possible energy from Kerbin, you do not have enough energy to get flung to Moho's orbit without more burning. And the windows are so tight that you can count on needing many orbits of the sun between the second Eve flyby and the first Moho flyby, so I can't use my applications to figure them out.
I sometimes consider a new 'lowest-dv-to..' type challenge for all the planets, but we'd have to agreed on a standard start orbit at Kerbin and final orbit at the target (or go surface-to surface like the old challenge). In any case I'd love to see your solution for a low-dV trip to Moho, especially if it beats Metaphor's![/QUOTE]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000] [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT="Arial"][COLOR=#000000]Alas, it is slow going. If I do ever manage to beat Metaphor, it will not be by much, but I think there may be a slightly cheaper path this way. I’ve posted some pics of the first part below. What I found was that if I ejected from Eve’s descending node with Eve at like -25 deg, for around 100m/s more than the minimal Hohman transfer (~1140 m/s), I could set up an encounter at or very near the Eve-Moho ascending node. This in one flyby allows me to do nearly all of the plane change and to drop to a perfectly Moho-tangent orbit that is very close to 2:1 resonant. My biggest problem right now is I’m arriving at the wrong time. There’s also still 0.5 deg of orbital tilt because I’m not ejecting from exactly the right spot. I’m hoping that if I move my Eve intercept to the correct position, it will still cost about the same and perhaps put me in a better phase relationship with Moho. We’ll see…[/COLOR][/FONT]
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[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000] [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT="Arial"][COLOR=#000000][imgur]rLqgm[/imgur][/COLOR][/FONT]
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[PLAD]

[quote name='herbal space program'][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000] [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT="Arial"][COLOR=#000000]Alas, it is slow going. If I do ever manage to beat Metaphor, it will not be by much, but I think there may be a slightly cheaper path this way. I’ve posted some pics of the first part below. What I found was that if I ejected from Eve’s descending node with Eve at like -25 deg, for around 100m/s more than the minimal Hohman transfer (~1140 m/s), I could set up an encounter at or very near the Eve-Moho ascending node. This in one flyby allows me to do nearly all of the plane change and to drop to a perfectly Moho-tangent orbit that is very close to 2:1 resonant. My biggest problem right now is I’m arriving at the wrong time. There’s also still 0.5 deg of orbital tilt because I’m not ejecting from exactly the right spot. I’m hoping that if I move my Eve intercept to the correct position, it will still cost about the same and perhaps put me in a better phase relationship with Moho. We’ll see…[/COLOR][/FONT]
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the pictures, I see what you are doing. There are 2 points where Eve crosses Moho's orbital plane, 180 degrees apart. In my best missions I encountered Eve at the Moho-plane-crossing that is roughly 180 degrees from Moho's perihelion. I figured that it was better to encounter Moho as close to the sun as possible so that the Oberth effect would reduce the encounter speed. However, that meant that a single flyby of Eve was not enough to drop the orbit all the way down to the Moho perihelion. You are encountering Eve at the Moho-plane-crossing that is roughly opposite Moho's aphelion, so a lower-energy start from Kerbin can make it there after just one Eve flyby. I never ran all the numbers to prove which way is better, but my tests seemed to suggest that the meet-Moho-at-periapsis gives you a lower speed at your first Moho encounter. I could be wrong. My criteria for judging the first Moho flyby is the speed you are going at the moment you first enter Moho's SOI, in Metaphor's winning run that was 1584m/s (orbital). The higher this number the more times you will have to flyby Moho, correct your solar orbit, flyby Moho... Since every correction costs dV, the fewer you have to do, the better. Even at 1584m/s Metaphor didn't brake into orbit until his 9th Moho encounter.
And yah, timing is a bear when dealing with Moho. After my 2nd Eve flyby I had to circle the sun 5.5 times before getting the first Moho flyby because I just couldn't time the flyby accurately enough to get the Moho encounter right away.
Here's a link to a picture showing the shape of my Eve-Moho orbit, so you can see where the Moho encounter is relative to its perihelion:
[url]http://i.imgur.com/SYZjn7g.png[/url]

For your comparison, I figure that Eve first crosses Moho's plane on Y1 D14.22 (roughly opposite Moho peri) and Y1 D46.55 (Roughly opposite Moho ap) and every 65.486 days after those (Earth time!). Let's see, in Kerbal time I think that is Y1 D53.9 and Y1 D183.2 and every 261.94 days after those.

[herbal space program]

[quote name='PLAD']... I never ran all the numbers to prove which way is better, but my tests seemed to suggest that the meet-Moho-at-periapsis gives you a lower speed at your first Moho encounter. I could be wrong. My criteria for judging the first Moho flyby is the speed you are going at the moment you first enter Moho's SOI, in Metaphor's winning run that was 1584m/s (orbital). The higher this number the more times you will have to flyby Moho, correct your solar orbit, flyby Moho... Since every correction costs dV, the fewer you have to do, the better. Even at 1584m/s Metaphor didn't brake into orbit until his 9th Moho encounter.
And yah, timing is a bear when dealing with Moho. After my 2nd Eve flyby I had to circle the sun 5.5 times before getting the first Moho flyby because I just couldn't time the flyby accurately enough to get the Moho encounter right away.
Here's a link to a picture showing the shape of my Eve-Moho orbit, so you can see where the Moho encounter is relative to its perihelion:
[URL]http://i.imgur.com/SYZjn7g.png[/URL]

For your comparison, I figure that Eve first crosses Moho's plane on Y1 D14.22 (roughly opposite Moho peri) and Y1 D46.55 (Roughly opposite Moho ap) and every 65.486 days after those (Earth time!). Let's see, in Kerbal time I think that is Y1 D53.9 and Y1 D183.2 and every 261.94 days after those.[/QUOTE]

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000] [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][FONT="Arial"][COLOR=#000000]Thanks! That’s a lot of useful information, particularly the exact times of the Moho/Eve plane crossings. It’s pretty hard to nail those down just squinting at the orbital map. I’m basically doing all of this with manually placed maneuver nodes, using nothing more than eyeballing and node-twiddling. To calculate my corrections, I’m referring to a big Excel spreadsheet I made with all the return times up to 12 orbits out for 22 different Moho-resonant orbits between 5:2 and 12:11. As to the speed at first encounter, I’m definitely going quite a bit faster than 1500-odd m/s, so you’re right about that. It will be interesting to see if I can walk down through the many required encounters for less than Metaphor did. Based on my experience so far, a lot of the transitions from one resonant level to another could in theory be made for just a couple of m/s by dialing in each encounter perfectly. For the levels before 5:3, I was actually flying by Moho at around 30km, but to get to 5:3 I had to fly by at only 6km. Still, all my corrections to that level were about tuning the encounters and not about losing energy to get to the next level. That may change as I get closer in, but the resonant levels actually get denser as you get closer, while at the same time the amount of assist you get at each encounter increases. One other issue I will have to contend with though is the accumulated radial acceleration that puts my Pe further and further inside of Moho’s orbit with each successive encounter. I’m assuming that’s why Metaphor alternated sides going past Moho, but that also increases the number of encounters required to slow down. Starting at a place that is not exactly at Moho’s Pe can actually help you in this regard, as you can set it up so that your orbit processes as you lower your Pe, keeping it closer to Moho’s orbit. Anyway, we’ll see how it all works out for me. It’s really fun trying to do this, but it sure is time consuming….[/COLOR][/FONT]
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[PLAD]

The problem of your solar periapsis getting lower than Moho's after each flyby is a big part of this approach, since it limits how low your Moho encounter speed can get. I think you have to do Deep-Space Maneuvers to raise your solar periapsis back to Moho's orbit about 180 degrees after each Moho flyby. This is what defeated me though, I could not make the DSM's efficiently enough so the corrections cost more than the arrival speed savings. Metaphor did do them well. It is interesting to look at details of the Messenger probe's path, [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otF2FjpCyZk"]here's a nice video[/URL]- you can see that they did a DSM a little over 180 degrees after each Mercury flyby. Looking closely I think the DSM is done halfway between 180 degrees from your pre-DSM periapsis and 180 degrees from your post-DSM periapsis. (It's also fun to see them 'stepping down' from Mercury resonance to resonance as the probe's SMA drops after each flyby.)

[TyrannoFan]

Every time I try to go to Moho, I get random and bizarre Kraken attacks. Sometimes, two crafts are controlled simultaneously, other times my crafts completely change their orbits by spinning, occasionally my camera drifts off by a few kilometers, and once in a while my crafts receive random acceleration from no identifiable source. As a result of the frustrations thanks to these Kraken attacks, I try to avoid Moho.