Kuzzter

Kerbfleet: A Jool Odyssey-CHAPTER 20 pg 23: Shee--oot, indeed! Or is it 'shee-ot'?

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1 hour ago, Nefrums said:

beware that using ions at Jool is a bit tricky as solar panels only get ~4-5% of Kerbin efficiency,

I was going to say about 3% but yeah, they suck.  You can still run a reasonable amount of "domestic" ship functions (probe cores, SAS, lights, scanners) off a pair of Gigantors, and if you have a big enough battery you can transmit a fair amount of data before you need a (long) recharge period, but solar is out for any high-consumption functions (ions, ISRU, etc.).  Jool is definitely fuel cell and fission reactor territory.

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40 minutes ago, Geschosskopf said:

I was going to say about 3% but yeah, they suck.  You can still run a reasonable amount of "domestic" ship functions (probe cores, SAS, lights, scanners) off a pair of Gigantors, and if you have a big enough battery you can transmit a fair amount of data before you need a (long) recharge period, but solar is out for any high-consumption functions (ions, ISRU, etc.).  Jool is definitely fuel cell and fission reactor territory.

FWIW, in Bill's simtest on Tylo, I was able to operate the large drill and small ISRU at full capacity using 5-6 Gigantors.... hm, if the longboat/capital ship combo are going to do large-scale ISRU as originally planned, we're going to have to 'crowd on a lot of sail', as it were. :D 

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22 minutes ago, rocketbuilder said:

What about the Jooldipperkraft!?

I have some concerns about that...

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51 minutes ago, Kuzzter said:

FWIW, in Bill's simtest on Tylo, I was able to operate the large drill and small ISRU at full capacity using 5-6 Gigantors.... hm, if the longboat/capital ship combo are going to do large-scale ISRU as originally planned, we're going to have to 'crowd on a lot of sail', as it were. :D 

All you need is a fusion reactor or two... ;)

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2 hours ago, Kuzzter said:

FWIW, in Bill's simtest on Tylo, I was able to operate the large drill and small ISRU at full capacity using 5-6 Gigantors.... hm, if the longboat/capital ship combo are going to do large-scale ISRU as originally planned, we're going to have to 'crowd on a lot of sail', as it were. :D 

Hmmm, don't all drills and ISRUs use the same amount of power, just the small ones produce 1/2 the product for that power? 

But anyway, I find this surprising.  IIRC, an ISRU needs 30 EC/sec and each large drill needs 15, so 60 total for 1 ISRU and 2 drills.  Gigantors at Kerbin produce 24 each but at Jool only about 0.85.  So 6 Gigantors at Jool should only produce 5 EC/sec, so (assuming the parts will run at all on less power), you shouldn't be able to do even 10% of their full capacity.

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This calls for a nuklear reactor, doesn't it?

 

On the other hand, a Gigantor on moho can feed the whole process almost on it's self.


 

 


 

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Why is the ship's name redacted? It's a space mission, not some evil space battleship secretly meant to wipe out the Kerbulans... right?

*Tinfoil hat on*

Or maybe it's just called the Kenlistar.

On 12/1/2015, 5:25:51, Kuzzter said:

Whoopsie! :) What, did you think I was training cadets on a Kerbahashi Maru bridge simulator just for giggles? Well, maybe I was... I haven't actually tested any capital ship concepts... yet...

 

I'll confirm this much: the design spec calls for each lander to carry enough mono for just ONE docking, with some margin for error of course. Also, the landers as you see them have all the major elements attached. I'd hope Bill is a good enough engineer that he wouldn't stick something as massive as a crew cabin on this late in testing. How late in testing, you ask? Let's check...

uA2CEdt.png

E9Lwuv5.png

Oh boy! This is going quite well, I think! Though that OX-STAT explosion did wipe the smiles off their faces for a moment. :D

 

2fast4wordz, indeed.

Edited by Sanic

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4 hours ago, Geschosskopf said:

Hmmm, don't all drills and ISRUs use the same amount of power, just the small ones produce 1/2 the product for that power? 

But anyway, I find this surprising.  IIRC, an ISRU needs 30 EC/sec and each large drill needs 15, so 60 total for 1 ISRU and 2 drills.  Gigantors at Kerbin produce 24 each but at Jool only about 0.85.  So 6 Gigantors at Jool should only produce 5 EC/sec, so (assuming the parts will run at all on less power), you shouldn't be able to do even 10% of their full capacity.

Hm, Bill will have to run a test in the simulator. As I recall it took about 180 hours to fill the tanks after a landing, but there may have been time warp shenanigans involved.

2 hours ago, Farex said:

This calls for a nuklear reactor, doesn't it?

Or maybe a fuel cell. 

2 minutes ago, Sanic said:

Or maybe it's just called the Kenlistar.

No, I would never call it that. Because the proper name is Kenlistar Awesum. And also I think people like surprises. :)

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52 minutes ago, Kuzzter said:

Hm, Bill will have to run a test in the simulator. As I recall it took about 180 hours to fill the tanks after a landing, but there may have been time warp shenanigans involved.

Or maybe a fuel cell. 

No, I would never call it that. Because the proper name is Kenlistar Awesum. And also I think people like surprises. :)

inb4 The Starship Esirpretne.

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8 hours ago, Kuzzter said:

we're going to have to 'crowd on a lot of sail', as it were. :D

Sails? Space?treasure_planet_2.png

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8 hours ago, Kuzzter said:

FWIW, in Bill's simtest on Tylo, I was able to operate the large drill and small ISRU at full capacity using 5-6 Gigantors.... hm, if the longboat/capital ship combo are going to do large-scale ISRU as originally planned, we're going to have to 'crowd on a lot of sail', as it were. :D 

You're better off using RTGs at Jool.  If you're staying stock, your options are fuel cell arrays, RTGs at 0.08 tons for 0.75 ec/s, or Gigantors at 0.30 tons for about 1 ec/s maximum out by Jool.  Once you're time warping greater than 1000x then all electric charge calculations are thrown out the window and you can run your drills no matter what power source you have.

This is going to be the best Jool-5 ever.

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11 hours ago, sdj64 said:

You're better off using RTGs at Jool.  If you're staying stock, your options are fuel cell arrays, RTGs at 0.08 tons for 0.75 ec/s, or Gigantors at 0.30 tons for about 1 ec/s maximum out by Jool.  Once you're time warping greater than 1000x then all electric charge calculations are thrown out the window and you can run your drills no matter what power source you have.

This is going to be the best Jool-5 ever.

Well, I do hope it is the best ever, thanks! So, in examining the evidence I think it's clear that whatever program Bill's using to simulate Tylo incorrectly calculates EC accumulation when time warp is 1000x or greater. Clearly that kind of shenanigans can't work in the real world, so we'll have to design the system differently.

Seems to me that the best way to do it is to run fuel cells. Calculating as follows for an ISRU system landed on Tylo:

Big drill: needs 15 e/s and produces up to 1.0 ore/s

Small ISRU: needs 30 e/s and produces .50 total LFO/s when supplied 2.5 ore/s... so if it gets 1 ore/s it should operate at 40% capacity, using 12 e/s and producing 0.2 LFO/s (yes? I'm not really sure how they work w.r.t. resource consumption when partially supplied with feedstock, and I can't test that right now)  

So, to provide 27 e/s I could:

  1. Crowd on lots of sail panels: at 0.85 per Gigantor, I'd need over 30 of them, massing 9 tons and looking really stupid.
  2. RTGs: would need 36 of them at .08t each, totaling 2.88t
  3. Fuel cell: would need two of the big ones, massing .48t and consuming (at 27e/36e= 75% load) .067LFO/s out of the 0.2 the system should be making.

Option 3 is the lowest mass option by far; its main downside is reducing LFO yield by about 33% which I can deal with--especially since it will be able to run day and night. Not sure exactly how ore concentration will affect this, but if it has power to run at full load then I suppose it doesn't matter too much how long it takes. I mean, it's not like there's something ominous happening in the meantime that could catch up with our heroes while they're waiting around for fuel to get made, right?

 

Edited by Kuzzter

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Nuclear reactor = A ton of RTGs put inside a reactor-looking case. 

Fuel cell arrays sounds way cooler than RTGs.

Edited by Sanic

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1 hour ago, Sanic said:

Nuclear reactor = A ton  2.88 tons of RTGs put inside a reactor-looking case. 

FTFY.

Quote

Fuel cell arrays sounds way cooler than RTGs.

I expect they will be; that'll save me mass on radiators as well. :D

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2 hours ago, Kuzzter said:
3 hours ago, Sanic said:

Nuclear reactor = A ton  2.88 tons of RTGs put inside a reactor-looking case. 

FTFY.

By 2.88 tons, either you made a typo when talking about tonnes, or you are an idiot non-metric-system-user.   </joke>

Edited by Willbl3pic

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14 minutes ago, Willbl3pic said:

By 2.88 tons, either you made a typo when talking about tonnes, or you are an idiot non-metric-system-user.

No need for name calling. When I say 'ton', I mean one thousand kilograms. In some countries that's a correct spelling.

Edited by Kuzzter

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13 minutes ago, Willbl3pic said:

By 2.88 tons, either you made a typo when talking about tonnes, or you are an idiot non-metric-system-user.

We generally run somewhat friendlier than that around here.

Happy landings!

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22 minutes ago, Kuzzter said:

No need for name calling. When I say 'ton', I mean one thousand kilograms. In some countries that's a correct spelling.

 

18 minutes ago, Starhawk said:

We generally run somewhat friendlier than that around here.

Happy landings!

there, I added a </joke>, to make my original intention a little clearer.

I meant no harm. I've been following these since almost the beginning of E:O0. I like your comics.

Edited by Willbl3pic

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28 minutes ago, Kuzzter said:

In some countries that's a correct spelling.

That's actually very interesting. I always thought that ton always meant imperial and tonne always meant metric.
I've learnt my new thing for today

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