How would one explain/demonstrate the length of a second/minute/hour to aliens?

[Pronoes]

2 hours ago, swjr-swis said:

 stuff

When I said time is a force akin to gravity, I mean like gravity, it is invisible but it's effects can be seen. It is persistent and exists everywhere. We can 'fight' against it, but inevitably we will succumb to it.

the question was how so we explain the concept of time to an alien. As you rightly pointed out, everything it relative- time is no different, so the best we can do is explain our own perception of time. 

If any other sentient being out there is not affected by time as we are, then we need to reevaluate our own perceptions rather tha  trying to explain a would be disproven theory.

 

tldr: what we know about time is 100% fact until proven otherwise. If that happens we can't explain time to anyone. We will be the student once again 

[swjr-swis]

1 hour ago, Pronoes said:

what we know about time is 100% fact until proven otherwise

Relax, I'm not going to argue/defend alternative physics. But the question as stated does leave itself rather open.

How would one explain/demonstrate the length of a second/minute/hour to aliens?

What senses do these aliens have? Are we communicating through light, sound, smell, touch, a combination, or something else entirely? How would we convey a unit of time through smell only, or through sound only?

Then the fact that these aliens have come within bidirectional communications range with us (otherwise there would be no dialog in which to do any explaining or demonstrating), coupled with the bordering-on-100%-certainty that there is no other space-faring/communicative life in our own solar system or even nearby star systems, implies that these aliens must've managed to find some way around our 100% fact-based problem of bridging interstellar c.q. galactic distance scales within a lifetime.

At best this would involve either extreme longevity (what is time for someone living eons, but even if infinitesimal a second would still have a duration to them) or at worst it would involve 'new' physics currently unknown to us (in which case my tangent might not even be the strangest one to pursue).

 

All that aside, I still think we need to do better than making Cesium-133 the 'Earthling standard kilogram of time'. Cesium might not even exist as an element in the vicinity of these aliens, or be so rare as to for all purposes be a figment of the Earthling imagination. Do we send/give samples of Cesium-133 along as part of our explanation? What if the stuff is highly toxic/lethal to them - they might see it as an act of aggression. And the equipment to actually read said transitions. And the blueprints and explanations of what it does and how it works and how to read the display. All that without at any point relying on using anywhere the 'second' as a unit, since presumably before we explain/show it, they won't understand what we're talking about.

So, we would need to either start very very simple with something that through language, culture and sensory barriers would unmistakably point out the length of a second, even if inaccurate.... or reduce time units to an exact math problem involving only fundamental constants. You know, on the premise that math is universal and constants are, well, constant.

[micr0wave]

From sunset to sunset.

The rest is like liters and gallons.

[GeneralVeers]

On 12/5/2015, 5:51:30, swjr-swis said:

I would love to see a proof of that assertion sometime.

You saw one already. I wrote it in the same post you quoted.

Time moves in the direction of increasing entropy.

Intelligence is characterized (among other things) by the ability to learn and remember. What are learning and memory? Information. What is information? Very simply, information is disorder. Information is chaos.

Picture a blank sheet of paper. Smooth, white, orderly. Perfect. How do you record information on it? By polluting the clean empty perfection of the paper. By putting black marks on it with a pen. By adding clutter to the page. Want to store more information on the page? You must add more disorder per unit space, by writing in smaller letters or using a more complex alphabet. A piece of paper, your computer's hard drive, your brain: all are the same. A hard drive with all zeroes on the platters stores no information; a newborn baby is a blank slate. You store information by un-blanking the slate. By changing some of the zeroes to ones. By cluttering up the piece of paper with black scribbles.

We learn because neurons in our brains change to different states. We remember things by increasing the level of entropy in our minds. So we can only form memories in one direction: the direction of increasing disorder. To move in the other direction is to forget yourself and forget everything you knew--to devolve and wither away. Intelligence and learning and memories can only move in one direction: the future.

Even when the Doctor hops in his TARDIS and goes back in time a thousand years, the Doctor himself is still moving forwards along his personal timeline. He still remembers everything he had done before jumping in the TARDIS; he's still forming new memories, creating more disorder in his mind. Even time travelers are stuck moving forwards.

[swjr-swis]

4 hours ago, WedgeAntilles said:

You saw one already. I wrote it in the same post you quoted.

Time moves in the direction of increasing entropy.

Intelligence is characterized (among other things) by the ability to learn and remember. What are learning and memory? Information. What is information? Very simply, information is disorder. Information is chaos.

Picture a blank sheet of paper. Smooth, white, orderly. Perfect. How do you record information on it? By polluting the clean empty perfection of the paper. By putting black marks on it with a pen. By adding clutter to the page. Want to store more information on the page? You must add more disorder per unit space, by writing in smaller letters or using a more complex alphabet. A piece of paper, your computer's hard drive, your brain: all are the same. A hard drive with all zeroes on the platters stores no information; a newborn baby is a blank slate. You store information by un-blanking the slate. By changing some of the zeroes to ones. By cluttering up the piece of paper with black scribbles.

We learn because neurons in our brains change to different states. We remember things by increasing the level of entropy in our minds. So we can only form memories in one direction: the direction of increasing disorder. To move in the other direction is to forget yourself and forget everything you knew--to devolve and wither away. Intelligence and learning and memories can only move in one direction: the future.

Even when the Doctor hops in his TARDIS and goes back in time a thousand years, the Doctor himself is still moving forwards along his personal timeline. He still remembers everything he had done before jumping in the TARDIS; he's still forming new memories, creating more disorder in his mind. Even time travelers are stuck moving forwards.

@WedgeAntilles I don't want to derail the OP's question beyond what he asked. Please understand I am not trying to be belligerent about this, I am genuinely interested in seeing a good answer to the questions posed both by the OP and my follow-up.

I will just say this here: providing proof is more than just repeating a statement. Some laws we accept and hold true are yet to be actually proven, in the formal sense. And your explanation, although I understand your intent, contradicts itself - storing information is actually creating order in disorder, and requires energy expenditure (think about it). I am open to continuing this in PM if you wish, so we let the OP be about how to explain the length of a second.

 

[Technical Ben]

It's a circular question with regard to "do they experience time". If the aliens are communicating with us they are required to be able to at least experience time as we do, though could do other ways, but only in addition.

"Can an alien exist that has no concept of time or a different concept of time to us" is a valid question, but such as alien would not be able to hold a conversation with us until it also knows our direction of time.

It may be correct that external observers (within or outside) of our experiences (so far known to be universal ) experience time differently or in any other direction (or all directions). However, being within a universe with entropy and a flow of time in one direction (though individual particles can flow backwards, the collection as a whole is forwards), we can only accept time for ourselves is forwards.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Technical Ben

[cantab]

19 hours ago, swjr-swis said:

Relax, I'm not going to argue/defend alternative physics. But the question as stated does leave itself rather open.

How would one explain/demonstrate the length of a second/minute/hour to aliens?

What senses do these aliens have? Are we communicating through light, sound, smell, touch, a combination, or something else entirely? How would we convey a unit of time through smell only, or through sound only?

Then the fact that these aliens have come within bidirectional communications range with us (otherwise there would be no dialog in which to do any explaining or demonstrating), coupled with the bordering-on-100%-certainty that there is no other space-faring/communicative life in our own solar system or even nearby star systems, implies that these aliens must've managed to find some way around our 100% fact-based problem of bridging interstellar c.q. galactic distance scales within a lifetime.

At best this would involve either extreme longevity (what is time for someone living eons, but even if infinitesimal a second would still have a duration to them) or at worst it would involve 'new' physics currently unknown to us (in which case my tangent might not even be the strangest one to pursue).

 

All that aside, I still think we need to do better than making Cesium-133 the 'Earthling standard kilogram of time'. Cesium might not even exist as an element in the vicinity of these aliens, or be so rare as to for all purposes be a figment of the Earthling imagination. Do we send/give samples of Cesium-133 along as part of our explanation? What if the stuff is highly toxic/lethal to them - they might see it as an act of aggression. And the equipment to actually read said transitions. And the blueprints and explanations of what it does and how it works and how to read the display. All that without at any point relying on using anywhere the 'second' as a unit, since presumably before we explain/show it, they won't understand what we're talking about.

So, we would need to either start very very simple with something that through language, culture and sensory barriers would unmistakably point out the length of a second, even if inaccurate.... or reduce time units to an exact math problem involving only fundamental constants. You know, on the premise that math is universal and constants are, well, constant.

Senses are largely irrelevant. Whatever the details of communication, I feel it's a safe assumption that it's something that varies over time. You can either encode a technical definition of the second, or just take the direct approach I said and send an identifiable signal that's one second long. It doesn't really matter whether the aliens interpret the signal as sound, light, smells, or even something beyond our own imagination, if they can decode the technical definition it's fine and if they receive the one second long signal it's obvious.

To make an analogy, let's say I've got a bitmap image of a number "1". To me that's a spatial arrangement of light and dark that expresses the concept of 1. To the computer it's a string of bits. Now what someone were to interpret that string of bits as an audio file? It would be a weird sound, but it still expresses the concept of 1 and could potential be understood as such, even for someone with no concept of "a spatial arrangement of light and dark". Though the interpretation makes it feel like a very cumbersome encoding, it's still a valid and comprehensible one.

As for the reference to Cs-133, well yes, maybe there are planets it's very rare on. But consider that we have discovered natural Astatine on Earth, and it's thought there is less than a gram of that in the entire crust of the Earth. I doubt any civilization we're able to communicate with hasn't encountered Cesium. And in any case, we can always give them a whole raft of alternative ways to describe a second if we like.

[GeneralVeers]

9 hours ago, swjr-swis said:

@WedgeAntilles I don't want to derail the OP's question beyond what he asked. Please understand I am not trying to be belligerent about this, I am genuinely interested in seeing a good answer to the questions posed both by the OP and my follow-up.

Unfortunately, the moment people in here started talking about creatures who (hypothetically) move/perceive backwards/freely/sideways in time, the concept of entropy became very much relevant to the OP. And the relationship between entropy and the arrow of time has already long since been resolved by other scientists before me.

Quote

And your explanation, although I understand your intent, contradicts itself - storing information is actually creating order in disorder

Wrong. Order is a blank sheet of paper. Order is a hard drive that's all zeroes. Want to actually look at the proof? Open up a ZIP file in Notepad. Look at it in text form. And gaze on the face of Chaos. A compressed data file always appears to be complete gibberish. The better the compression, the more completely gibberishy the gibberish appears. Any repetition of patterns means you're wasting space. The fewer repetitions, the more stored information you've got.

More information--more memories, more things learned--means more different memories, more different things learned. Information is disorder.

Quote

and requires energy expenditure

Exactly. And energy expenditure results in a net increase in disorder.

 

The practical upshot of all the above is that critters unbound by time are impossible. Time is a one-way street.

Spoiler

......except.....in the Twilight Zone......

 

[wrcsubers]

Assuming they arrived here on earth from some far away distance/time; I'm pretty sure they will be explaining time to US.  Our understand of time and physics is immense, from our perspective and reference; however, to an obviously far advanced space-faring civilization, we may have just an infantile understanding of time and physics.

As for the Cesium... Don't forget that our measurements of time are something that WE developed.  While always exists, our measurement of it is defined by our original constraints. Think of it like this...

500 years ago(simply for comparison) we didn't need to measure the very large(distances between galaxies) or very small (atomic levels), so someone said 'let's make the meter'.  As time goes on we needed to measure larger and smaller things, so the dimensions stretched.  Now we have the Planck and Parsecs.  Time has a very similar story, but time is more relevant to our planet.  The reason a day is a seemingly random 86400 seconds, is because that is relevant to our planets rotation (which we now know isn't even constant).

Even someone from Mars would find our definition of time clunky to their relative frame.  Not to say that our definition of time is wrong, but it is probably very easily explained, yet also very irrelevant to alien life.

Edited December 7, 2015 by wrcsubers

[Pronoes]

I'd simply tell them that 1 second is 1/480 of the time it takes me to load KSP when it's modded to the teeth.

[Sampa]

On 11/26/2015, 6:24:19, Camacha said:

[quote name='FungusForge']Basically the title. Not much else I can think of adding.

Did you look up the definition of a second before posting this?

That does not appear to be the problem.  He is asking how we would explain it to an alien species who would experience time differently then us and would be using another form of time keeping.  To answer the OP, I would say, learn about their time keeping method and use that to help explain our own.  ALWAYS be observant.

[cfds]

8 hours ago, WedgeAntilles said:

Unfortunately, the moment people in here started talking about creatures who (hypothetically) move/perceive backwards/freely/sideways in time, the concept of entropy became very much relevant to the OP. And the relationship between entropy and the arrow of time has already long since been resolved by other scientists before me.

Wrong. Order is a blank sheet of paper. Order is a hard drive that's all zeroes. Want to actually look at the proof? Open up a ZIP file in Notepad. Look at it in text form. And gaze on the face of Chaos. A compressed data file always appears to be complete gibberish. The better the compression, the more completely gibberishy the gibberish appears. Any repetition of patterns means you're wasting space. The fewer repetitions, the more stored information you've got.

More information--more memories, more things learned--means more different memories, more different things learned. Information is disorder.

Exactly. And energy expenditure results in a net increase in disorder.

 

The practical upshot of all the above is that critters unbound by time are impossible. Time is a one-way street.

  Reveal hidden contents

......except.....in the Twilight Zone......

 

You seem to remember the chapter of "A short history of time" incorrectly. A "blank slate" is not a state of maximum order. Recording information means to fight against entropy, that wants to return the recording medium into a random state (by flipping bits or fading the colour on the paper or smudging the chalk). To record information, you have to locally increase the amount of order, the energy expenditure increasing entropy somewhere else.

Your conclusion is correct, though. Consciousness has to move in the same direction inn that the entropy increases.

 

 

[Xannari Ferrows]

Use a simple mark on the proton of an atom of Hydrogen, and put that same mark above it to hopefully show that the two are equated. Next, show the same mark on the proton and neutron of an atom of Deuterium, and put two marks above that one to signify that the two marks on the hadrons are equal to the isotope of the atom. Do the same thing with Tritium with 3 marks to establish a number pattern.

When an atom of Hydrogen and it's electron revolve parallel [locked] to each other, the atom is in it's high energy state. The spins become antiparallel when the electron revolves opposite to that of it's proton, and it is in a lower energy state. When this transition happens, a bit of energy is released that is approximately 21 centimeters long. Put a mark between the two atoms in their different energy states to equate the length of the energy wave to 1. It may take some [a lot] of time, but this is all you need. Each mark equals 21 centimeters, so add them in sequence to one another until you have a distance equal to a light second. You'll have to find some way to explain multiplication if you want to take up [a lot] less paper.

[Green Baron]

On 27.11.2015 01:37:51, Gaarst said:

One second is 9 192 631 770 vibrations of a ¹³³Cs atom transitioning between the two hyperfine levels of its ground state (from the BIPM website).
One minute is 60 seconds.
One hour is 60 minutes.

I think that's a good place to start (it's something like the radiation resonant with the caesium atoms level transition). Ooh, try to explain a kg to an englishman :-) He'd say "A second is a heartbeat." as he would say "An acre is a piece of ground a man can plough in a day.". "Ok", was my reply," may i use an ox or is that cheating ?".

Is the alien moving towards us at a relativistic speed telling us to have the tea ready when he(*) arrives ("Oh, hello, you were faster than planned ?") ? Or is he leaving at a similar speed telling us he forgot the keys on the shelf near the door and asking us to send them until fraturday ("That was yesterday, wasn't it ?") ? Is his Cs-Atom in good condition or is it feeling cold due to long exposure to a harsh environment ? Is it concentrating on it's job or distracted by a nearby black hole (which was used by the alien for a swingby maneuver) staring at the event-horizon and forgetting about it's duty to count the time ?

Hey, no offence meant to no-one, i'm just trying to be funny while waiting for 1.1 :-)

Could it be helpful to the alien if we told him "That was measured yesterday while in a stable orbit 1AU above that yellow star over there on the surface of a planet with a gravitation of 9,81m/(s*s) ?".

Oh bloody mess ... poor alien.

:-)

k

(*) insert apropriate gender here :-)

Edited December 8, 2015 by kemde
Marketing expert told me that squaresecond sounds better than second ....

[Mazon Del]

Here is one for you. Assuming you cannot remember how many vibrations of hydrogen and other sort of things work, this is a surprisingly decent metric.

Tell your alien to record your voice, at your best guess rate of one number every second, count up to some number greater than sixty. Have them analyze the audio and figure out the average length of time between numbers for every "gap space". This average should end up being fairly accurate. Of course, it won't be scientifically accurate, but it should be decent enough that across a year you don't have too much drift.

[GeneralVeers]

On 12/8/2015, 12:51:35, cfds said:

You seem to remember the chapter of "A short history of time" incorrectly.

I did read Short History of Time, but that's not where I got my theorem. That was me thinking it through myself. Somewhere, I have no idea where, I heard this bit of wisdom: "you don't really understand something unless you can explain it to your grandmother". So I try to actually understand things for myself instead of just spouting what I hear from other people, and I try to explain things in short words everybody can understand.

Same thing holds for trying to explain stuff to aliens. Keep it simple until the language barrier is busted. Frequencies of light? Vibrations of atoms? Really hard to get the point across to someone speaking Valkuparifinoporalian......