Indigenous rights group block telescope construction

[Green Baron]

Well, there existed a plan B for the TMT (here on La Palma), so from a mere science view the necessity wasn't all that great. But a billion funds is probably just too much to spend elsewhere and America already has a cooperation here with GTC.

I can't judge from here how much actual sorrow for the loss of cultural heritage was involved or how much it was lawyers trying to squeeze out some benefit. The decision fell 5:2 and construction can go on.

Hopefully they are more careful than NASA and don't drop anything vital and tell the politicians not to touch any optical surfaces ;-)

 

[magnemoe]

6 hours ago, Scotius said:

I kinda feel bad for the locals who fought against the modern science encroaching on their spiritual beliefs. But still - YAY! Hopefully new photos will bring a lot of informations about the Universe.

Read one comment from one native Hawaiian, the mountain tops was not an religious place it was mine, volcanic glass generated so high up had an superior quality probably because of the thin air. 
The thin air also generated issues for the miners, the high attitude is also an issue for constructions up there today. Some miners got visions and put up shrines, you would also have others just for protection. 
Add that stuff on the mountain top will keep way better than down in an tropical climate. 

[ModZero]

18 minutes ago, magnemoe said:

Read one comment from one native Hawaiian,

This is known as "happy like Daily Mail after finding an immigrant who hates black people."

Look, they're not some weird odd people. I mean, I don't know about the US, but in Europe there is plenty of places where you will not be let to build stuff, and culture is going to be one large reason. And yes, some of those are going to be nature. Every time you try to do logging in what little forest we have, or digging for shale gas under historic towns, you get huge protests.

But when non-white people do the same, you all start dismissing it as "religion." Much of the protected buildings in Europe are churches. I'm not sure the idea of converting the Notre Dame into lofts would go down very well.

[magnemoe]

16 minutes ago, ModZero said:

This is known as "happy like Daily Mail after finding an immigrant who hates black people."

Look, they're not some weird odd people. I mean, I don't know about the US, but in Europe there is plenty of places where you will not be let to build stuff, and culture is going to be one large reason. And yes, some of those are going to be nature. Every time you try to do logging in what little forest we have, or digging for shale gas under historic towns, you get huge protests.

But when non-white people do the same, you all start dismissing it as "religion." Much of the protected buildings in Europe are churches. I'm not sure the idea of converting the Notre Dame into lofts would go down very well.

Comment was on another forum and made sense, its some years ago so don't remember details. 

And no you would not build without an archaeological survey, if you get an significant find, say an well preserved temple or village the spot is off limit. Smaller stuff you will move. 
This is standard procedure, any major archaeological find in the US will be native of obvious reasons
Its also not an issue for the telescope as moving it 100 meters would not matter. More boring if you buy premium real estate downtown and find an roman temple under the parking lot there you want to build something. 

Objections here however was not archaeological but religious and that the entire mountain is holy ground, as said archaeological issues would be solved simply by moving telescope a bit. Notre Dame is an failed analogue, roadside shrines you see a lot in Catholic countries and also in Asia is an closer match. They don't block road construction you simply move them. 

[kerbiloid]

If gods didn't like the telescope, they wouldn't allow to put it there.

(Look at the expeditions to Phobos)

Edited October 1, 2017 by kerbiloid

[ModZero]

7 hours ago, magnemoe said:

And no you would not build without an archaeological survey, if you get an significant find, say an well preserved temple or village the spot is off limit. Smaller stuff you will move. 

Look. The *people* here consider it of a high cultural value for them. That's enough for any decent person. And this has nothing to do with archeology.

7 hours ago, magnemoe said:

Notre Dame is an failed analogue, roadside shrines you see a lot in Catholic countries and also in Asia is an closer match

Oh no you didn't.

Edited October 1, 2017 by ModZero

[Vanamonde]

Religious discussions never end well on this forum, which is why we've had to rule the subject off-limits. Please stay clear of that. 

[Mr. Peabody]

On 10/1/2017 at 5:47 AM, ModZero said:

Look. The *people* here consider it of a high cultural value for them. That's enough for any decent person. And this has nothing to do with archeology.

Oh no you didn't.

Hurray for someone with respect and decency!

[tater]

Respect is a feeling of deep admiration. That has to be earned. I'll respect ideas about mountains (or anything else) being magical when they demonstrate their claims to be true.

[ModZero]

It's their land and their culturally significant landmark, and the telescope is an intrusion by what amounts is an occupying force; they don't have to "earn" our respect. 

You don't have to share a faith with them to be respectful towards it. And, uh, such colonial demands towards people are really a bad look in the 21st century. 

[Green Baron]

I respect my neighbours ground, i respect other's achievements, i respect the law (don't laugh, mostly) without any deep feelings. I respect it if a group claims a place to be worth protecting because of historical or cultural reasons. Would a certain group be content if some great^(TM) American sunk warship abroad, declared a cultural heritage because graveyard, be removed to make room for a harbour wall ? It'll at least start a controversy me thinks.

Respect doesn't have to be earned, for most people it is a basic function of everyday life. Just some don't care ...

Pictures of the Cerro Armazones where the E-ELT is being built show how deep the intrusion of such a project really is. The mountain top is gone. Now Mauna Kea is bigger than that and the TMT smaller, but still, if there was a "holy place" or something near the construction site it will be removed.

 

In the case of the TMT i have already stated my opinion. I cannot say how much bare monetary interest and how much really cultural concerns were involved. There was a plan B for the TMT so apparently cultural concerns were not the only decision basis. Research funds, scientists moving in, construction companies, economic development etc. pp. had to be considered and in the end won.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Green Baron