TiktaalikDreaming

[WIP] German WWII rockets including never built absurdities

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Over on my thread for the Nexus release, someone asked about the German A-12 orbiter rocket.  It was never built, but was a fairly well sketched out idea.

a12.jpg

 

I thought I'd "give it a go", but first I thought I'd check for the existing examples of V-2's and so on.  But they don't seem to exist.  For a game that recreates the slow progress of developing rockets, it seems to be missing.  Especially seeing you're introduced to things but Werner von Kerman.  Presumably the whole game takes place after Komplete Konflict II.

What's available is a V-2 (Vengence weapon 2) aka A-4 (Aggregate rocket 4).  Two nose cones, the V-2 nose with explodyness, and a heat shield enabled nose cone, which is totally a-historical but also useful.

Also, some parts are available to build the A-4b (wings!), the A-9 (useless but cool looking wings and a cockpit) and the basics of the A-10 (booster stage).  Plus "artist's impression" of A-11 and A-12, seeing as that's about as detailed as those designs got.

At some point I built a 3d model for the A-6 Redstone rocket which is partly derivative of the A-4, made-in-the-USA, and actually flew.  FASA is a bit limbo, and users using the aggregate mod for progression would naturally look at bridging engines, so I added a basic A-6 Redstone to this mod.  It has surprisingly low payload capability, so I need to double check my figures, but maybe it was just less horribly over-engineered than the aggregates.  And using real world values to try to lift KSP components is fraught with dangerous thrust to weight ratios.

I think everything has RO+RSS config.  The engines don't yet use resources for the gas cycle though.  I want to add that in, but just haven't got around to it yet.

http://spacedock.info/mod/42/Wernher's%20Old%20Bits

Parts;

 

Edited by TiktaalikDreaming
Replacing Album

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1 hour ago, sal_vager said:

@Pagan_Scorpion made a pulsejet and some planes to go with it, one is V-2'ish (albums are busted unfortunately)

That rocket looks very explosive ...

V-1ish, not V-2ish.  Both are pilotless drone bombs, but the V-1 is essentially a jet aircraft, while the V-2 was a sub-orbital rocket.  Those are very cool pulse jets though.   :-)  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-weapons

The A-12 was never built, but it was designed to get a person into orbit.  Designed at a time when the Germans were having trouble figuring out why their fuel tanks were exploding during the rocket's downward journey, so it's fairly likely the orbiting could have worked, but de-orbiting may have been a tad lethal.
Generally, the rockets were less explosive than modern rockets, as the fuel in use was ~76% ethanol, although they were using liquid O2 for an oxidizer.  They were difinitely capable of exploding.  But the explosive force would be less than RP-9 or other kerosene type fuels.  And of course, once in orbit, spare propellant is either breathable or drinkable.  Which is a bit of a bonus.  The rocket components were all fairly heavily over-engineered.  Partly because they didn't really know the breaking points, and partly because manufacturing quality wasn't high (a lot of the labour was "internment camp" labour) and making it stronger than it needed to be compensated for flaws.

I'll be doing the V-2 first.  There's a serious truck load of info, photos, and technical data on the V-2.  The A-12's rockets (A-10) were derivative of the V-2's, so I'll make a copy and mangle it as per some vague notes available for the A-12.

Edited by TiktaalikDreaming

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That there is a very nice looking A-4 engine! Following with interest!

If you want the (AFAIK only) existing A-4 parts mod, see @Beale's Taerobee mod which includes X-1 and A-4/V-2/Bumper parts.

Also, I'm not sure it's really safe to say the A-12 was a serious design. The A-10 (in A-9/A-10 config) certainly was, it was a reasonable IRBM design for the time, but there's controversy as to whether the A-12 (in A-9/10/11/12 config), or even the A-9/10/11, was a serious wartime design, or a "backported" design based on Von Braun's postwar ferry rocket calculations. See, relatedly, whether the A-11 and A-12 stages were supposed to retain the ethalox propulsion of the A-9 and A-10 or switch over to the (postwar) nitric acid / hydrazine-derivative mixture.

I take it you're basing off the original A-9/A-10 deisgn, rather than the late-A-9 / A-4b design?

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54 minutes ago, NathanKell said:

That there is a very nice looking A-4 engine! Following with interest!

If you want the (AFAIK only) existing A-4 parts mod, see @Beale's Taerobee mod which includes X-1 and A-4/V-2/Bumper parts.

Also, I'm not sure it's really safe to say the A-12 was a serious design. The A-10 (in A-9/A-10 config) certainly was, it was a reasonable IRBM design for the time, but there's controversy as to whether the A-12 (in A-9/10/11/12 config), or even the A-9/10/11, was a serious wartime design, or a "backported" design based on Von Braun's postwar ferry rocket calculations. See, relatedly, whether the A-11 and A-12 stages were supposed to retain the ethalox propulsion of the A-9 and A-10 or switch over to the (postwar) nitric acid / hydrazine-derivative mixture.

I take it you're basing off the original A-9/A-10 deisgn, rather than the late-A-9 / A-4b design?

I never spotted the Taerobee mod.  My forum-search-fu is lacking.  But then, I posted this at least partly so others might correct my "there's no existing V-2 mod" statement.  :-)

The A-12 isn't really a likely design.  I meant the rough design is moderated advanced.  In general terms.  The engine concepts are generally held to be severely unlikely to have ever worked.  But that's the sort of thing that would have been fixed at the engineering stage (EG: the A-4 rocket is a mashed up series of A-3 rockets because they couldn't get a single large combustion chamber to work).  But yeah, it likely started as an unfunded "what if" set of scribbles.

I think my intentions are at least an approximation of the whole Aggregate range of rockets.  But so far, just the orignial A-4, and that's just a half done engine.  Maybe a couple of Goddards in for completeness.

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Beale modeled a V2 in his Tantares mod.  Engine and fins, Fuel Tank, Nose cone.  Just thought I'd mention that.  I do agree tho that this game could use some such rockets and early in the tree.  Fire off these (uncrewed) to figure things out before flinging Jeb to his doom...

 

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Looks interesting...

I should check it out sometime.

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On 10/12/2015 01:19:12, sal_vager said:

@Pagan_Scorpion made a pulsejet and some planes to go with it, one is V-2'ish (albums are busted unfortunately)

That rocket looks very explosive ...

I've tried many ways to submit good album preview on the forum, but do not succed for now, I've put the links pointing them on the first post of my post, maybe that is better ? :blush:

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8 minutes ago, Pagan_Scorpion said:

I've tried many ways to submit good album preview on the forum, but do not succed for now, I've put the links pointing them on the first post of my post, maybe that is better ? :blush:

In the top toolbar, there is a black box with an i in it. Click that, give it the album code (the part of the link after the /a/) and it will insert an album. :)

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Try the "Insert other media" imgur button on the lower upper right of the text editor, imgur galleries only need the gallery code same as before, individual images can use the whole url.

Edit:

Yeah just use the imgur button :)

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46 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said:

In the top toolbar, there is a black box with an i in it. Click that, give it the album code (the part of the link after the /a/) and it will insert an album. :)

I've tried it the wrong way so, I thought it was broken since it was like that on the former forum and didn't work after the transfer to the new one. I'll try that, if it do not work, I'll try @sal_vager's way.
Thanks to you both :kiss:

--Edit--
It works, the albums are back ! Thanks again !

Edited by Pagan_Scorpion
Result

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5 hours ago, Pagan_Scorpion said:

I've tried it the wrong way so, I thought it was broken since it was like that on the former forum and didn't work after the transfer to the new one. I'll try that, if it do not work, I'll try @sal_vager's way.
Thanks to you both :kiss:

--Edit--
It works, the albums are back ! Thanks again !

It's worth noting the "broken links" that say Javascript disabled or whatever, do work to take you to the album.  Which is handy when you have no idea what your album links were.

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Looking at your blurb on Kerbalstuff, I'd recommend against labeling anything with a name that could add up to a triple-K abbreviation.

This looks like a good project, though. These early rockets will be a good complement to other historic-based packages.

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7 hours ago, ultrasquid said:

Looking at your blurb on Kerbalstuff, I'd recommend against labeling anything with a name that could add up to a triple-K abbreviation.

This looks like a good project, though. These early rockets will be a good complement to other historic-based packages.

The first K is Kerbal, and Kerbals would never bother adding that, so It's just KKII.  :-)  The thought did occur to me.  I'm not a fan of triple K mentalities.  But I'm not going to let them steal all uses of "K"

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7 hours ago, halowraith1 said:

so the parts are smaller?

will there be a way to make resize them and scale up their performance for real solar system?

Yes, the parts are smaller. There's not yet an easy resize. But I'll definitely be looking at either a real solar or realism overhaul mm patch. Or even just two sets, one of half scale, one at full scale. 

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I _think_ I have what's needed for a resize if real solar system is installed, but something's horribly wrong with my realismoverhaul KSP.  It's possible it's been broken since 1.0.5, possibly by my super clever upgrade cycle.  And trying to temporarily add RSS to my current test game has met with some minor disasters.  So I might release what I have (confirmed not going strange combination of sizes without RSS) and ask others if it does weird stuff.

After I fix the gimbal.

:-)

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Some progress.  I found a colour image of an A-4 (V-2) engine.  Maybe even with original colours, although I don't have any way to tell.  Rocket colours are no issue, they're detailed in minuscia.  I've started wotk on the A-2/A-3/A-5 engine.  The stupid engine goes inside the fuel tank, so it's a tad weird.  And I'm not sure how I'll arrange the parts just yet.  I am chasing down the various "but what if the rocket explodes on take off?" mods to see if the A-2 rocket can be made as successful as it was historically.

 

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Here are some reference pics if you need em. This looks amazing though.

Edited by Rokker

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