Early Career Science Lull - What Next?

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

In my most advanced career to date (playing two whole weeks now...) I've managed to get a craft into orbit and then degrade the orbit without killing my Kerbil.  Much celebration by all.

 

The problem is - to get to higher orbits I need more science - - - still trying to get the '90' cost items - of which I only have a few.  I've already built a KerbilKar and driven around the space center gathering temperature, barometric, goo, science and crew.EVA reports.  Whenever I'm in space I try to gather science - but I've apparently already been to these altitudes - cause I'm usually getting nothing.  The contracts I have are for high altitude temp / baro / crew reports - and I don't have supersonic engines yet.  So they're a waste.  Or they're asking me to test stuff I haven't unlocked yet. 

 

So, I'm kind of at a loss.

 

What next?

 

 

.

 

.

 

...FWIW - I have a 20% rep, if that means anything to anyone.

[GoSlash27]

Joe Schmuckatelli,

 If you have all of the tech nodes up to level 5, you are capable of building a science probe that can do a Munar flyby and recover safely.

 No solar panels and no SAS yet, so it's a pain in the butt, but it's doable.

 Get the experiments for high space over Kerbin and then see if you can unlock the Okto probe core and solar panels.

After that, a pair of Munar flybys (low and high space over Mun), a pair of Minmus flybys, and even a quick trip out of Kerbin's SoI.

Best,

-Slashy

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

So this is what the Stayputnik is for?  I thought it was just something funny.

 

Hmmm... Will have to try this.

 

thanks!

Edited December 13, 2015 by JoeSchmuckatelli

[GoSlash27]

18 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

So this is what the Stayputnik is for?  I thought it was just something funny.

 

Hmmm... Will have to try this.

 

thanks!

You're welcome and good luck!

 Be sure to use the reaction wheel with the stayputnik. It doesn't have one built in.

Also, once your battery is dead, it's dead. Be sure to disconnect it when not in use to extend its life.

Best,

-Slashy

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

Yeah - my battery died on the way out of the atmosphere on my first attempt - going to have to play around with this to get it to work...

 

Didn't have enough charge to separate the engine from my probe.

 

Razmafraz.

Edited December 13, 2015 by JoeSchmuckatelli

[ForScience6686]

A couple things.  The part test contracts give you the item to use.  This can be very beneficial in the early game to get tech you don't have yet.  I usually accept these just to get the item then decline it one I've reached that level on the tree.

You don't necessarily need supersonic engines for Kerbin observations.  Use jets to get you to the area and a rocket engine to get your altitude.  With the new jet tech I think Kerbin observations are much more easier and beneficial now.  Make sure to bring some extra science gear and land in the biomes as well.  I recommend lots of wing to allow for slower landing speeds on the rougher terrain, or just use chutes.

Next, go for a poplar orbit and do Eva over each biome.

Get solar panels as soon as possible to open up easier exploration of the moons.  

It is doable to send a manned landing mission of the moons early on.  There are ways around the lack in technology, you just need some creativity.   for example, instead of needing a radial decoupler, I built my mun landers transfer and landing stage with tanks attached radially to give me a bigger foot print.  Then I drop the bottom section,  which includes a center tank and the three radially mounted tanks, for the return stage which takes very little for the trip back to Kerbin If you keep your return craft lite.  There is added mass as I use a separate engine for the ascent and journey back to Kerbin, but it allowed for sooner exploration.  I then send the same craft to minmus which can get a few landings in with the same amount of fuel.  This got me the tech needed for my duna probe by day 10 in my current career. 

Remember to keep your weight as low as possible to save money and fuel.  I had a problem with over building my ships when I first started.

 

[Rocket In My Pocket]

My suggestion would be to focus more on the biomes around kerbin, chances are you still have a buttload of science to find right here at home!

Also, you can scan for science at low alt, high altitude, space, and deep space I believe. If my memory is right space is at 70-80ish and deep space is 150-200ish.

If you go to the research center you can see what scans you've done by selecting the appropriate tab on the top, at the admin center you could go for one of the strategies that gives you science gain in exchange for rep/funds/etc...

[GoSlash27]

35 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Yeah - my battery died on the way out of the atmosphere on my first attempt - going to have to play around with this to get it to work...

 

Didn't have enough charge to separate the engine from my probe.

 

Razmafraz.

Joe Schmuckatelli,

 I recommend keeping a z-100 battery in your service bay with the scientific instruments. The stayputnik doesn't have nearly enough battery on it's own.

Best,

-Slashy

^ My early career Mun flyby probe

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

I did not know the 'test' missions actually gave you a part.  I thought you had to accept the mission, then unlock that science module to be able to complete the mission.  Interesting.

 

I think one of my problems is I'm not getting the gravity turns effectively.  I use the largest single stage solid fuel rocket available at my level to get out of the atmosphere... That may be part of the problem: I just read that too much thrust can defeat gravity turns.  I've been trying to power into a turn, but then need a second stage to widen and flatten my trajectory, and a third to get back down.

 

Looks like I need to play with liquid fuel rockets in the atmosphere...

 

[Snark]

1 hour ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

I did not know the 'test' missions actually gave you a part.  I thought you had to accept the mission, then unlock that science module to be able to complete the mission.  Interesting.

I think one of my problems is I'm not getting the gravity turns effectively.  I use the largest single stage solid fuel rocket available at my level to get out of the atmosphere... That may be part of the problem: I just read that too much thrust can defeat gravity turns.  I've been trying to power into a turn, but then need a second stage to widen and flatten my trajectory, and a third to get back down.

Looks like I need to play with liquid fuel rockets in the atmosphere...

 

Yes, the "test" missions make the part available as much as you like, until you complete the contract-- then the part goes away again, until you unlock that contract.  Thus @ForScience6686's handy suggestion of "don't complete the contract" so you get to keep the part.

Solid fuel rockets are great for launching.  They're dirt cheap and available at low tech levels.  However, they have really crappy Isp, which means they're awful for upper stages-- and if you've got SRBs enough to take you all the way out of the atmosphere, in effect you're using them as an "upper stage" and you're probably using too many of them.  A good rule of thumb:  the SRBs should get you up to 10-15km going 300-400 m/s, at most.  After that, you want to be liquid fuel.

Here's an example of a small ship that gets to orbit very easily:

• Mk1 command pod with parachute and heatshield
• 2-ton LFO tank with Terrier
• 4-ton LFO tank with Swivel
• Two radial Hammers with nosecones, thrust dialed down appropriately to give TWR of 1.5 on the launchpad

The Hammers will take it up to a bit over 10km and slightly past Mach 1.  The Swivel boosts the Ap nearly out of atmosphere and gives a big horizontal component to the velocity (assuming a decent gravity turn). The Terrier raises the Ap the last couple of dozen kilometers, circularizes the orbit, and has plenty of fuel left for shenanigans after circularizing.

For the gravity turn:  Start your turn almost immediately, right off the pad, with the very gentlest of nudges eastwards.  Continue nudging as needed so that by the time you're at 10km altitude, you're at 45 degrees and going Mach 1 or a bit over.  Then punch to max throttle and follow prograde until your Ap is where you want it.

Getting the amount of nudges right, so that you're at 45 degrees at the right altitude, takes some practice.  Just do a bunch of launches over and over until you get that part down, so you have a feel for it.  For example:  make it a game.  Try the above-described ship, and the goal of the game is "how much fuel do I have left after entering a circular orbit at 80km?"  If you can fly that ship to an 80km circular orbit and still have at least a ton of LFO left, you get a passing grade.  Practice that, and once you get to orbit-with-a-ton-of-fuel-remaining, everything after that should be a piece of cake for you.

By the way:  You know that EVA reports from "near space" are biome-specific, yes?  So if you can get to orbit, you can just hop in and out of your command pod over all the various biomes and collect a bunch of different EVA reports.  Gives quite a boost.

 

Edited December 13, 2015 by Snark

[Plusck]

The 90s bit of the science tree is a difficult one. There are three or four really vital things to unlock: (a) OKTO core + photovoltaeic panel, (b) barometer, (c) radial decouplers, and (d) fuel lines.

Each of these things brings massive advantages, but it is a conundrum to work out which one to do first. I think I ended up taking the barometer, then running though all the same missions again, then OKTO, but it might have been the opposite.

It's nice if you get a contract to "test" decouplers, for example, as long as you negligently miss the contract parameters on each launch until you can actually afford the science points to get non-experimental access to them.

[GoSlash27]

2 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

I did not know the 'test' missions actually gave you a part.  I thought you had to accept the mission, then unlock that science module to be able to complete the mission.  Interesting.

 

I think one of my problems is I'm not getting the gravity turns effectively.  I use the largest single stage solid fuel rocket available at my level to get out of the atmosphere... That may be part of the problem: I just read that too much thrust can defeat gravity turns.  I've been trying to power into a turn, but then need a second stage to widen and flatten my trajectory, and a third to get back down.

 

Looks like I need to play with liquid fuel rockets in the atmosphere...

 

Joe Schmuckatelli,

 I recommend forgetting about SRBs in early career unless you've upgraded the launch pad. Using an SRB just eats into the payload you can get to orbit, even if you use them for boosters. A single LV-T30 has enough thrust to lift anything within the 18t pad limit and will make a lighter boost stage than an SRB for the same DV, thus improving your payload to orbit.

Once you've upgraded the pad, have at it. SRBs are cheap and that's a good thing for mid career and beyond.

For gravity turns, your best bet is to climb vertically to around 100 m/sec (depending on t/w). After that, pitch east 10° and hold it until the prograde marker matches your heading. After that, just turn off SAS and let it fly itself.

 You will have to reengage SAS and manually fly it after around 30km altitude.

Best,

-Slashy

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

So much to learn - I promptly went out - accepted the 'Test' contracts - those that offered science for completing the test - and completed them for the science.  Did not think about or anticipate the part disappearing immediately afterward.

 

Such.... Arrrgh!

 

Upside is, it pushed me over the limit so I could afford to unlock the OCTO.

[GoSlash27]

22 minutes ago, Plusck said:

The 90s bit of the science tree is a difficult one. There are three or four really vital things to unlock: (a) OKTO core + photovoltaeic panel, (b) barometer, (c) radial decouplers, and (d) fuel lines.

 

 Personally, I don't use the fuel lines or radial decouplers in early career, but I agree with the others. I do use the FL-T800 tank and the 48-7S mini engine. Bigger tank to cut down on part limit and mini engine to extend my operations in space. Given those parts (and previously unlocked stuff) I can return science from the surface of Minmus. That pays off huge in early career.

Best,

-Slashy

[MaxL_1023]

If you have maneuver nodes unlocked I recommend going to Minmus before the Mun. It takes only another 100m/s of delta-v but the gravity is much weaker, letting you land or change your orbit using much less fuel. Believe it or not, a kerbal can easily jetpack from orbit to Minmus' surface and back up to orbit, especially from the highlands or midlands. 

If you have the funds, unlock surface samples from the level 1 science upgrade. You can get one from every KSP and Kerbin biome and they give you considerably more science than the normal temperature/pressure readings. 

Also, if you have the OKTO don't worry about returning science. Just transmit for the 50% from Minmus or the Mun - that will give you enough science to unlock the 2.5m engines+tanks and give you the power needed to send manned return missions. 

[Wanderfound]

Second on the Minmus recommendation. As soon as you get solar you want to be heading out of LKO, and if you can reach the Mun, you can also reach Minmus.

The navigation is a bit trickier [1], but landing is much, much easier and the science rewards are 50% higher. Once you get the hang of biome-hopping, a single 9,000m/s ΔV mission can easily pull down 2,000 science.

 

[1] Only a little bit. Either time your transfer to hit Minmus AN/DN, or just do a low-ΔV inclination correction when you're halfway there.

[GoSlash27]

47 minutes ago, Wanderfound said:

Either time your transfer to hit Minmus AN/DN, or just do a low-ΔV inclination correction when you're halfway there.

Or C: Launch into Minmus' orbital plane. KSC falls under Minmus' ascending and descending nodes twice a day. That's what I do.

Best,

-Slashy

[GoSlash27]

Joe Schmuckatelli,

 If you've got the Octo and solar panels, then your life just got a ton easier. You can pretty much go wherever you want in the Kerbin system with all the science instruments. And even outside of it.

Best,

-Slashy

[Pecan]

By the time you have tier-3 technology (counting the starter tech as tier-1) there is nothing stopping you from manned missions to Kerbins moons.

Remember - Kerbal isn't Earth; they'd rather you chuck sentient beings at space-rocks than use computers.  The biggest problem is working-out how to get in and out of spacecraft when ladders start at tech-5 ^^.

[cantab]

Part tests either landed or splashed on Kerbin often turn up and sometimes give decent science, especially if it's a new part. The splashed tests can be done by sticking the part on a car and trundling down the runway and into the water. Bit of a chore but useful for a quick injection of science or cash,

[Snark]

9 minutes ago, cantab said:

Part tests either landed or splashed on Kerbin often turn up and sometimes give decent science, especially if it's a new part. The splashed tests can be done by sticking the part on a car and trundling down the runway and into the water. Bit of a chore but useful for a quick injection of science or cash,

Even faster than trundling down the runway, just stick it on a little rocket with a ton or so of fuel and a parachute, and crank it eastwards immediately on takeoff.  Gets you to splashdown nice and quick.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

Well, thanks guys!  - Just had some fun with probes and the Mun.  My first probe - I managed to get it out there, only to realize I hadn't put any transmitting gear on it.  Grin.  Upside was, I got to play with orbital inclinations - and learn that you can screw up an orbit so badly that instead of an orbit, you get catastrophic reentry.  Fun times.

 

Second one wasn't great - but it did have comm gear - and, while I was only able to accomplish a flyby - I did pull nearly 120 science out of that (yes, that's after being reduced by transmitting) - but still a better result than anticipated.  That probe looks to be about to be slung out of orbit by the Mun - so it will be interesting to see what happens to it over time.

 

Anyway, thanks again for the suggestions!

[Snark]

9 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Second one wasn't great - but it did have comm gear - and, while I was only able to accomplish a flyby - I did pull nearly 120 science out of that (yes, that's after being reduced by transmitting) - but still a better result than anticipated.  That probe looks to be about to be slung out of orbit by the Mun - so it will be interesting to see what happens to it over time.

Excellent, glad to hear it worked out well!  Got your "high over Mun" and "near Mun" results, yes?  Even better that it's getting completely slung out of orbit-- as soon as it leaves Kerbin's SoI, you can pick up another set of science results for "high over the Sun".

Next comes Minmus. 

[arise257]

Generally speaking, as I move through the science tree, I prioritize new science instruments over most other technology. If you're consistently adding new science parts, you're consistently collecting new data, which makes further gains easier to attain. If I remember correctly in my current career game, I didn't launch to Minmus (or Mun) until I had the barometer, thermometer, goo, and Science Jr in tow.

[twright439042]

On 12/13/2015 at 3:28 PM, Snark said:

Yes, the "test" missions make the part available as much as you like, until you complete the contract-- then the part goes away again, until you unlock that contract.  Thus @ForScience6686's handy suggestion of "don't complete the contract" so you get to keep the part.

Solid fuel rockets are great for launching.  They're dirt cheap and available at low tech levels.  However, they have really crappy Isp, which means they're awful for upper stages-- and if you've got SRBs enough to take you all the way out of the atmosphere, in effect you're using them as an "upper stage" and you're probably using too many of them.  A good rule of thumb:  the SRBs should get you up to 10-15km going 300-400 m/s, at most.  After that, you want to be liquid fuel.

Here's an example of a small ship that gets to orbit very easily:

• Mk1 command pod with parachute and heatshield
• 2-ton LFO tank with Terrier
• 4-ton LFO tank with Swivel
• Two radial Hammers with nosecones, thrust dialed down appropriately to give TWR of 1.5 on the launchpad

The Hammers will take it up to a bit over 10km and slightly past Mach 1.  The Swivel boosts the Ap nearly out of atmosphere and gives a big horizontal component to the velocity (assuming a decent gravity turn). The Terrier raises the Ap the last couple of dozen kilometers, circularizes the orbit, and has plenty of fuel left for shenanigans after circularizing.

For the gravity turn:  Start your turn almost immediately, right off the pad, with the very gentlest of nudges eastwards.  Continue nudging as needed so that by the time you're at 10km altitude, you're at 45 degrees and going Mach 1 or a bit over.  Then punch to max throttle and follow prograde until your Ap is where you want it.

Getting the amount of nudges right, so that you're at 45 degrees at the right altitude, takes some practice.  Just do a bunch of launches over and over until you get that part down, so you have a feel for it.  For example:  make it a game.  Try the above-described ship, and the goal of the game is "how much fuel do I have left after entering a circular orbit at 80km?"  If you can fly that ship to an 80km circular orbit and still have at least a ton of LFO left, you get a passing grade.  Practice that, and once you get to orbit-with-a-ton-of-fuel-remaining, everything after that should be a piece of cake for you.

By the way:  You know that EVA reports from "near space" are biome-specific, yes?  So if you can get to orbit, you can just hop in and out of your command pod over all the various biomes and collect a bunch of different EVA reports.  Gives quite a boost.

 

This was pretty helpful in general but wow, I don't know how you get these altitude marks with this DeltaV in this version of the game. Was the game a bit nerfed when this was written? I find I need much more fuel per stage to hit these marks (though, of course, there are a hundred things I might be doing wrong...)

Specific question: you say "2-ton LFO tank" and "4-ton LFO tank"... which tanks are you using, specifically? I find none of the stock tanks are exactly 2- or 4-ton carriers.