Do You Consider MechJeb Cheating?

[razark]

11 minutes ago, r4pt0r said:

we dont have to rhythmically tap a key to breathe.

Great idea!

Someone go post this in the suggestions.  "KSP needs proper breathing simulation."

[TYRT]

I've always been defending that it's not cheating, but real rockets don't use a script downloaded from internet  If you want to use a realistic computer based GNC environment, use kOS.

[AlamoVampire]

cheating? nope. and um how many times has this come up since mechjeb became a thing?

 

Look, the short and long of it is this: use what makes you happy and brings more depth for YOU. and, as ive said before, real world rockets use automation, so using it in game makes it more "real" and also, automation shall set you free. that being said, there are those, who for what ever reason enjoy flying the SAME LAUNCH, SAME RENDEZVOUS and SAME DOCKING over and over and over again, AND those same people seemingly love to babysit long burns so who knows.

[Speeding Mullet]

4 hours ago, r4pt0r said:

The NASA uses mechjeb argument is bad because this is a game not reallife. we dont have to rhythmically tap a key to breathe. As a game it should be different from real life.

Your example validates Mechjeb:

A respiratory control center at the base of your brain controls your breathing. This center sends ongoing signals down your spine and to the muscles involved in breathing.

These signals ensure your breathing muscles contract (tighten) and relax regularly. This allows your breathing to happen automatically, without you being aware of it.   medulla oblongata = mechjeb.

EDIT:  I misread the angle of your post, but it doesn't matter.  My comment is still funny, and we are both still correct

[Speeding Mullet]

I also tend to agree with the example of enormous burns being handled by MJ.  KSP is extremely time intensive and if you have limited time, then MJ can help you manage the game around RL.  I think it's a great tool, and considering KSP is sandbox, it is only possible to cheat yourself.  If you don't consider it cheating then people can't tell you that is it cheating, they can only consider (or not) it cheating when applied to their own set of arbitrary rules.

SM

[KasperVld]

I removed a few unneeded comments / posts. Lets leave moderation to the moderators shall we? The question in this thread has been asked before, and as you can see from the image @mythbusters844 posted, it often leads to a standard pattern of discussion - which never really truly addresses the core of the discussion. The question "Is Mechjeb cheating?" first requires that you define cheating, and only then can you discuss if Mechjeb is indeed that.

It's a lazy day for me, so I'll simply quote Wikipedia's definition of cheating

Quote

Cheating is the getting of a reward for ability or finding an easy way out of an unpleasant situation by dishonest means. It is generally used for the breaking of rules to gain unfair advantage in a competitive situation.

In the context of Kerbal Space Program, Mechjeb certainly an "easy way out of an unpleasant situation" - because some people simply don't like flying their rocket for various reasons mentioned earlier: they've done it before, a burn takes a very long time, etc.. in some cases players also use it to complete tasks they can't do otherwise, so that too would fall under the first part of the definition. But that's just the first part. Is this done by dishonest means? I don't see how one could defend that argument, in fact I would find it hard to define an honest and a dishonest way to play a non-competitive game. And that's why I have to agree with everyone who says that you should play the game the way you want to.

Mechjeb makes certain tasks easier, and takes away a part of the gameplay. But honestly, if you prefer building ships, stations and bases more than you enjoy flying rockets, why wouldn't you? You play the game for your enjoyment, not that of others - so do as you please.

[klgraham1013]

1 hour ago, KasperVld said:

snip

 

/thread

[Corw]

6 hours ago, r4pt0r said:

The NASA uses mechjeb argument is bad because this is a game not reallife. we dont have to rhythmically tap a key to breathe. As a game it should be different from real life.

This. And yaaay, its one of these threads again. I don't have issues with MechJeb whatsoever. What I do have issues with is people telling new players that are learning to get to orbit/dock/go interplanetary to just use MechJeb. It completely defeats the point of the game. It would be like advising someone to use an aimbot in FPS, even if that particular FPS is singleplayer

Once you've figured out what you are doing, power to you, automate whatever you like, but doing it by hand the first place makes you the better builder and mission planner to start with, because you have first hand experience what is required to make it work.

[Corw]

On 26.12.2015. at 0:54 PM, Whovian41110 said:

Most real rockets are flown entirely by internal guidance computers.  I am a new player of KSP and the only way I can get things in an even partially similar orbit is with MechJeb.  Would that be considered cheating?  

Hey, can I take another shot at this?

 

If this was a real life thing, the closest you would ever get to a real rocket is a paid guided tour, so you can leave out the real life arguments out of this topic.

Yes, you are a new player, so we are were once upon a time. I bet not even a Harvester made the orbit from the first try. Don't sell yourself short. So many people before you made it without MechJeb, many of them, including yours truly, made it before the MachJeb even existed. Yes, you can insert "through snow, bare footed, uphill, both ways" joke here, but it clearly represents the fact that game can be played and learned without MechJeb, so we can take that argument out of the topic too.

So now, I'm going to make my point why I think you should try it without MechJeb.

For me, this is the best game I have ever played. Seriously. Despite its flaws and rough bits, it is truly the best game I have ever played. Large part of it is because it can be hard, but it can be done, we have proved that point already. It takes some effort, but because it takes effort the feeling of accomplishment when you actually pull trough, the rush you get when you actually do it is worth the effort. The thrill of making to orbit, the feelings I had looking back at Kerbin spinning slowly beneath me, Kerbin going smaller while I was going to the Mun, ... So many moments in this game that made me feel so much. And I did it with help of others, with their advices, with their tutorials, but in the end it was me who did it, every step of the way. Through all explosions and spins and all others obstacles it was me pushing trough, learning something through it all, getting better every time. And when I finally made it, it was all me, on top of the world, feeling the pride, the joy, the excitement.

That is why I'm so much against new players using MechJeb. It is not cheating, but you are depriving yourselves of the best bits of the best game I've ever played...

[Tex_NL]

I'll try to be brief.

Lets see what dictionary.com has to say about the word cheat.
"Mislead, dupe, delude; gull, con; hoax, fool. Cheat, deceive, trick, victimize refer to the use of fraud or artifice deliberately to hoodwink or obtain an unfair advantage over someone."

Is MechJeb cheating? NO! Is any other mod cheating? NO!
When playing KSP there is only one person playing KSP. YOU. There are no other people to gain any advantage over. So purely by definition cheating in KSP is simply not possible. The only one you can possibly cheat out of enjoying the game by either using or not using mods is yourself. If you are a purist and think you should play as stock as possible. Fine, do as you please. That's YOUR way of enjoying the game. If you want to mod it till it breaks. That's fine too. Again, that's YOUR style of gameplay.
If you want to use mods, use mods. If you don't want to use mods, don't. Nobody, and I do mean ABSOLUTELY NOBODY, has the right to tell you how YOU should be playing the game! PERIOD!

And now can we please all just be quiet and let this rest, die and rot for eternity.

Edited December 28, 2015 by KasperVld
rule-breaking content removed.

[Caelib]

This has literally been asked HUNDREDS of times on this very forum - just do a search!

[rkman]

On 26-12-2015 at 1:41 PM, r4pt0r said:

I legitimately consider any mod cheating,

Even mods that make the game harder?

 

Do not tweak the gameplay as squad has created it.

So what do you think of the fact that Squad went out of their way to make the game modable?

Sure looks like Squad wants the community to change KSP's gameplay.

 

[Wallygator]

Everything about KSP is cheating.  Unless you are actually building a real rocket in your garage (Elon you know who you are!) then its all a big cheat.

I admit I'm a cheater.  It's been 2 hours since I last cheated.

[Fleb]

It's only cheating if it was used in a challenge where it was forbidden, but if you are playing your own single player game, then no, calling it cheating doesn't even make sense. That's my take on things anyway.

[Tortoise]

Eh, people that know me, know my answer to this already. But really, I don't think you're cheating when you use mechjeb, I think mechjeb is cheating you of your knowledge and fun of flying rockets. That's why I've never used it, I rather become an expert at doing things manually, it makes the game more fun, gives me more experience and knowledge on how to do things, and makes KSP's awesomeness last longer.

Edited December 27, 2015 by Tortoise
Added boldness

[Aetharan]

May as well add my little bit of fuel to the fire, preferably while everybody's standing far enough back that nobody gets burned:

Personally, I use MechJeb quite often, for a number of purposes: Primarily, Smart A.S.S. for pitch/heading control relative to the surface, rather than my current orbit.  Maintaining rover speed at a constant is useful, too.  The ability to just look at a little window occupying some of my screen real-estate rather than shifting over to map mode to gain information on what my current orbit looks like is also a blessing and a half.  The final use to which I typically put it is the "execute next node" feature, letting the auto-pilot handle burns that I've planned out myself.  I very rarely let MechJeb actually plot a node for me at this stage, and I always do landings on my own.

The thing is, I called on it to plan maneuvers and handle landings quite often in earlier play.  For me, it wound up serving as a teaching tool:  I watched how it would handle a given task, then worked backward to figure out why it was doing things in the way that it was, because that was easier for me to understand than the question of "How do I accomplish this thing that has no analog in my real-world experience?"  Thus, seeing something done by the machine a few times was typically a good way for me to figure it out so that I didn't need MechJeb any more to accomplish the task at hand.

As to the question of whether it's cheating:  No.  I'm not competing against anybody, so there's no unfair advantage to be had.  I haven't cheated myself out of an experience, but instead rode my bike with training wheels for a while until I'd figured out how to keep my balance without them.  The only thing that it has deprived me of is frustration, and in so doing, it's made it far easier to stick with the game for longer and have much more fun over that time.

In conclusion:  If you think that MechJeb makes the game better for you, then that's perfectly fine.  Spread the word if anybody's asking about mods that perform functions it can handle.  If you think that it somehow violates the spirit of the game, and refuse to try it on principal?  That's your decision, and I won't deride you for it.  More power to you if you want to handle everything manually, and are capable.  Just don't go around telling others that they're in the wrong for enjoying a single-player game in their own way.  To everybody expecting (or displaying) hostility in this thread:  We can handle controversial topics without jumping down one another's throats.  That there is a strong disagreement is no reason that debate shouldn't or cannot be held, so long as we remember that we have far more in common with the other side than we have in opposition.

Debate on, but please, for the love of the Kraken, be respectful.

[Gojira1000]

Of course it's not "cheating" - to start with you're not being graded, nor is KSP a rigid ideology with a Holy Book of Maneuver Orders, so it's not even a sin.

 

[Rocket In My Pocket]

Yes, MechJeb is cheating.

You are a bad bad boy.

I hope it was worth it.

I'm not mad at you...I'm just...disappointed. 

[Aetharan]

As a side-note, MechJeb is cheating if you're in a serious relationship with another auto-pilot mod, and it's not one of those "open relationship" deals.  You really should consider your autopilot's feelings before flirting with other mods that serve the same function.

[AlamoVampire]

On December 26, 2015 at 1:58 PM, 073198681 said:

<snip>

No, Mechjeb is not cheating. It does, in fact, make the game much more realistic due to its guidance capabilities (not to mention the launch trajectories). As long as it isn't used for manned landings.

I just want to focus on your final sentence.

Every single moon mission that landed with a SINGLE exception was automated. Armstrong is the only person to land via manual control, only did so because the computers became overloaded and he saw it was trying to land in boulders.  So, using it for manned or um kerbaled landings is realistic.

[Matuchkin]

13 hours ago, AlamoVampire said:

I just want to focus on your final sentence.

Every single moon mission that landed with a SINGLE exception was automated. Armstrong is the only person to land via manual control, only did so because the computers became overloaded and he saw it was trying to land in boulders.  So, using it for manned or um kerbaled landings is realistic.

Sorry for that. I was solely thinking about Apollo 11 when I was writing that. That makes Mechjeb realistic in general, right?

[Matuchkin]

18 hours ago, mythbusters844 said:

 

....sigh...

 

To this, I agree, and reply like this:

<....sigh...

>

Understood?

[Vanamonde]

Henceforth, those caught saying forum moderation is fascistic will be shot. Now stick to the topic. Or be shot. 

[Scotius]

*pops a bucket of corn*

Keep it comin' folks! While we bicker back and forth, new players have the opportunity to take a look at both sides of the argument, start to form their own oppinion on the matter...and maybe get something positive out of these recurring, Mechjeb-shaped trainwrecks.

[Matuchkin]

17 minutes ago, Scotius said:

Mechjeb-shaped trainwrecks.

Mechjeb-shaped rocket debris.