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[1.8.1 - 1.9.1] Realistic Atmospheres


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1 hour ago, The-Doctor said:

@OhioBob does this work with Real solar system?

No, this mod is strictly for the stock solar system.  RSS, however, doesn't need it.  The RSS atmospheres are already made to be realistic (I did them).

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Hello there, @OhioBob...

I'm just starting to use your mod, and as I'm very deeply in modding my new game in a very peculiar way, I was thinking to change Kerbin atmosphere from 70km height to 100km (... more likely around the value of the Karman line on our planet Earth :P )

Considering ALL the scientific aspect you put in your mod (... that I'm surelly non in the way to understand :P ), but just knowing well enough about to read a game cfg, could be "realistic enough" (considering an 1.43~ time higher atmo) to simply multiply the heigth values in your Kerbing config, without touching anything else???

Edited by Araym
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@Araym, I wouldn't recommend multiplying the heights.  I think a better solution would be to extrapolate the curve by adding more keys, while leaving the existing ones alone.  Probably the easiest way to do it is by using Sigma Dimensions.  Just install Sigma Dimensions and drop the following config into GameData.

@Kopernicus:BEFORE[SigDim2]:NEEDS[SigDim]
{
	@Body:HAS[#name[Kerbin]]
	{
		@SigmaDimensions
		{
			@atmoTopLayer = 1.42857143
		}
	}
}

 

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11 minutes ago, OhioBob said:

@Araym, I wouldn't recommend multiplying the heights.  I think a better solution would be to extrapolate the curve by adding more keys, while leaving the existing ones alone.  Probably the easiest way to do it is by using Sigma Dimensions.  Just install Sigma Dimensions and drop the following config into GameData.

@Kopernicus:BEFORE[SigDim2]:NEEDS[SigDim]
{
	@Body:HAS[#name[Kerbin]]
	{
		@SigmaDimensions
		{
			@atmoTopLayer = 1.42857143
		}
	}
}

 

Could it work together with your mod?
I'm liking the "feeling" (subtle different, but present) of your mod, on Kerbin, with a more realistic atmosphere...

... that basically, in my mind, the idea that I could avoid too much of other mods: I picture the figure that, if the atmospheric curves described by the value in your config about kerbin are given from 0 to 70km, the curve themselves (example: the pressureCurves) - considering it like a graph -  will be just "stretched", but in keeping the same "shape", if I multiply every key related to the altitude by the same value (in "pressureCurve", "temperatureCurve", "temperatureSunMultCurve"... but also, directly using your config as template, to "upgrade" the warp altitudes and the "atmosphere threshold" for the scientific data)...

I would like to add a layer of "difficulty" in my gameplay, to make going orbit a bit harder. I considered some config alike a 2.5x system, BUT always the thing tha blocked me was loosing the anomalies: I like to send probes to map planets and then travel to sightseeing all the anomalies found. In a bigger scale system they are lost and buried.


I had once an Unity extension that helped me to draw and check curves like that, but I lost it in the migration between my pst 2 pc, and I totally forgot how it was called and where i found it... sigh...

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9 minutes ago, Araym said:

Could it work together with your mod?

Yes it will.  The SD config I gave will work with or without RealisticAtmospheres.  The source of the atmosphere doesn't matter, SD will extend it either way.

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15 minutes ago, Araym said:

... that basically, in my mind, the idea that I could avoid too much of other mods: I picture the figure that, if the atmospheric curves described by the value in your config about kerbin are given from 0 to 70km, the curve themselves (example: the pressureCurves) - considering it like a graph -  will be just "stretched", but in keeping the same "shape", if I multiply every key related to the altitude by the same value (in "pressureCurve", "temperatureCurve", "temperatureSunMultCurve"... but also, directly using your config as template, to "upgrade" the warp altitudes and the "atmosphere threshold" for the scientific data)...

You can do it that way, but I'd advise against stretching it by a factor any greater than 1.25.  Using a factor of 1.25 will give Kerbin a height-pressure gradient exactly the same as the real life Earth.  Stretching it more than that means that at altitude the atmospheric pressure is higher than should be.  If you want to go higher than the 1.25 factor provides, I recommend extending the curves, not stretching them.

I suggested using Sigma Dimensions only because it has built into it all the tools needed to stretch/extend the atmosphere.  If you want to both stretch (by 25%) and extend (to 100 km) the atmosphere, I recommend this:

Quote

@Kopernicus:BEFORE[SigDim2]:NEEDS[SigDim]
{
    @Body:HAS[#name[Kerbin]]
    {
        @SigmaDimensions
        {
            @Atmosphere = 1.25
            @atmoTopLayer = 1.142857143
        }
    }
}

 

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12 minutes ago, OhioBob said:

You can do it that way, but I'd advise against stretching it by a factor any greater than 1.25.  Using a factor of 1.25 will give Kerbin a height-pressure gradient exactly the same as the real life Earth.  Stretching it more than that means that at altitude the atmospheric pressure is higher than should be.  If you want to go higher than the 1.25 factor provides, I recommend extending the curves, not stretching them.

I suggested using Sigma Dimensions only because it has built into it all the tools needed to stretch/extend the atmosphere.  If you want to both stretch (by 25%) and extend (to 100 km) the atmosphere, I recommend this:

 

Looking at how you described your scientific knowledge in the whole post about your mod... well... I have to follow the advice because...

... basically: yes! I would like to have an Earth-alike atmosphere, with  the game considering the "limit" about "Kerbin" and "space" at 100k (the conventional limit of the Karman line on Earth).
I'll definitely try the second config.

I want to "destroy" all the knowledge I have from KSP 0.14 (yes... I was pretty early in the game :P ) to now, without change the whole system (I'm a great fan of the general stock planery system, aside just adding each install the OPT extra joolian planets because... well... they are "my stock" extra planets :P)

Edited by Araym
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  • 4 weeks later...

I'm getting a message when I try to run this in 1.9.1 with BG, telling me that Kopernicus in incompatible with KSP 1.9.1 and a warning that I should not open any of my save games. I'm only loading Kopernicus because I'm told it is needed for Realistic Atmospheres. Is there a work around? I looked at the latest stuff in this thread going back to well before 1.9 was released, but I don't see any posts that look related.

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8 minutes ago, Michel Bartolone said:

I'm getting a message when I try to run this in 1.9.1 with BG, telling me that Kopernicus in incompatible with KSP 1.9.1 and a warning that I should not open any of my save games. I'm only loading Kopernicus because I'm told it is needed for Realistic Atmospheres. Is there a work around? I looked at the latest stuff in this thread going back to well before 1.9 was released, but I don't see any posts that look related.

Sorry, no work around.  To use Realistic Atmospheres in 1.9.1, you'll have to wait until Kopernicus updates for 1.9.1.  Please don't pester the Kopernicus devs about it.  They're working on it and an update will be released when it's ready.

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4 hours ago, Michel Bartolone said:

... and this one says it is 1.9.1 compatible

No it doesn't.  It says it's 1.8.1 compatible.  Though it should work fine in 1.9.1 once Kopernicus updates.

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12 hours ago, OhioBob said:

No it doesn't.  It says it's 1.8.1 compatible.  Though it should work fine in 1.9.1 once Kopernicus updates.

ok, the mod itself says 1.8.1, but, in CKAN it says Max KSP version is "any"...I think you should tie that max ksp version to the actual version it will work with.

 

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1 hour ago, Michel Bartolone said:

ok, the mod itself says 1.8.1, but, in CKAN it says Max KSP version is "any"...I think you should tie that max ksp version to the actual version it will work with.

 

Yes, but that is an issue with many mods on CKAN–not necessarily with CKAN itself, but mod authors/maintainers/submitters.

Not every mod on CKAN is there because the mod's author submitted it, but some more-or-less unrelated helpful person (not being snide here). IMO anything that says "any" is suspect, even if it is just a single-line ModuleManager patch, because "any"thing may change "any"time a new version of "any"thing is released, be it KSP, ModuleManager, or a mod dependency. Treat such mods with an extra pinch of suspicion and a healthy dose of user discretion.

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2 hours ago, Michel Bartolone said:

ok, the mod itself says 1.8.1, but, in CKAN it says Max KSP version is "any"...I think you should tie that max ksp version to the actual version it will work with.

I had nothing to do with Realistic Atmospheres' submission to CKAN.  I haven't the foggiest idea how any of that works.

But typically I don't like putting a max version on my mods.  Most of my mods don't require updating when a new KSP version comes out.  So putting a max version on them just means that anybody using the mod is going to get an error saying its incompatible with the new version even though it is actually perfectly fine.  So either everybody gets an error message for something that's not really an error, or I have to release an update just to change the version number on something that otherwise doesn't require updating.  It's easier just to not put a max version on it.

And technically Realistic Atmospheres is compatible with 1.9.1, it's its dependency (Kopernicus) that's not compatible.

 

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21 hours ago, Corax said:

Yes, but that is an issue with many mods on CKAN–not necessarily with CKAN itself, but mod authors/maintainers/submitters.

Not every mod on CKAN is there because the mod's author submitted it, but some more-or-less unrelated helpful person (not being snide here). IMO anything that says "any" is suspect, even if it is just a single-line ModuleManager patch, because "any"thing may change "any"time a new version of "any"thing is released, be it KSP, ModuleManager, or a mod dependency. Treat such mods with an extra pinch of suspicion and a healthy dose of user discretion.

OK, this makes sense...but I was not aware that someone other than the author could put things on ckan

 

20 hours ago, OhioBob said:

I had nothing to do with Realistic Atmospheres' submission to CKAN.  I haven't the foggiest idea how any of that works.

But typically I don't like putting a max version on my mods.  Most of my mods don't require updating when a new KSP version comes out.  So putting a max version on them just means that anybody using the mod is going to get an error saying its incompatible with the new version even though it is actually perfectly fine.  So either everybody gets an error message for something that's not really an error, or I have to release an update just to change the version number on something that otherwise doesn't require updating.  It's easier just to not put a max version on it.

And technically Realistic Atmospheres is compatible with 1.9.1, it's its dependency (Kopernicus) that's not compatible.

 

Thank you...I wasn't aware that someone other than the author could put a mod on ckan

 

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20 hours ago, OhioBob said:

I had nothing to do with Realistic Atmospheres' submission to CKAN.  I haven't the foggiest idea how any of that works.

But typically I don't like putting a max version on my mods.  Most of my mods don't require updating when a new KSP version comes out.  So putting a max version on them just means that anybody using the mod is going to get an error saying its incompatible with the new version even though it is actually perfectly fine.  So either everybody gets an error message for something that's not really an error, or I have to release an update just to change the version number on something that otherwise doesn't require updating.  It's easier just to not put a max version on it.

And technically Realistic Atmospheres is compatible with 1.9.1, it's its dependency (Kopernicus) that's not compatible.

 

I'm more wary though of a mod that says it is compatible, with a max version of "any", than of a mod that says it's not, with a version umpteen KSP releases back. Because one is either overly optimistic, or its author didn't know better or worse, didn't care, while the other's author possibly has put some thought into which versions the mod is likely to be compatible with, even if they stopped updating their mod years ago.

CKAN has a mechanism that allows you to mark older versions as compatible, that you can activate, install your one "incompatible" mod, and deactivate again. On the flipside, AFAIK there is no mechanism to filter out mods which don't have a specific max version (might be worth a suggestion to the CKAN people though).

 

The thing to take away from all this is, using your brains when you install mods is recommended, whether you do it manually or via a mod manager. Try and understand at least how the basics of modding work, the more you do, the more it will help you avoid so much frustration.

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  • 2 months later...
On 5/11/2019 at 12:35 PM, OhioBob said:

Eeloo could certainly support a thin atmosphere, and I contemplated giving it one.  But I decided not to because of what I consider to be a bug in the way stock parachutes work.  If I gave Eeloo an atmosphere, I'd want it to be too thin for parachutes to work.  While parachute semi-deployment is a function of atmospheric pressure, full deployment is strictly a function of altitude.  So when a vehicle is within X distance from the ground (setting is adjustable, but default is 2500 m AGL for drogues and 1000 m AGL for mains), a parachute will full deploy even if the minimum pressure condition hasn't been met.  Since I don't want that, Eeloo doesn't get an atmosphere.
 

Does Sigma Tweakchutes fix this? (I assume its bundled in GPP for Hox and Leto?)

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1 hour ago, Iodyne said:

Does Sigma Tweakchutes fix this? (I assume its bundled in GPP for Hox and Leto?)

Yes, Sigma TweakChutes was written specifically to fix this issue.  Of course TweakChutes didn't exist at the time I wrote that.  TweakChutes is bundled with GPP starting with version 1.6.4.0 (also with GEP and JNSQ).

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Just now, OhioBob said:

Yes, Sigma TweakChutes was written specifically to fix this issue.  Of course TweakChutes didn't exist at the time I wrote that.  TweakChutes is bundled with GPP starting with version 1.6.4.0 (also with GEP and JNSQ).

Yeah I get that it didn't exist at the time... just wondering if now that it does Eeloo can get some love. :)

I could try to write the config but not really sure I'd get it all too realistic.

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9 hours ago, Iodyne said:

just wondering if now that it does Eeloo can get some love. :)

Perhaps in a future update, but I currently have no plans for that.  I might consider it once Kopernicus is out of beta, but certainly not before then.
 

Edited by OhioBob
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  • 3 weeks later...
On 8/12/2020 at 7:17 PM, Drupegod02 said:

Does this work with Beyond Home?

I don't know anything about Beyond Home, so I don't know.  If Beyond Home includes the stock planets, then it will like change the atmospheres of those planets.  But it won't change the atmospheres of any custom planets added by Beyond Home.

Edited by OhioBob
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