How to play without asparagus staging?

[GunnDawg]

So I learned really early on what asparagus staging was and how to use it. Ever since then I've launched EVERY single rocket with it. Seeing as how it's not realistic and not a used technique I kind of want to start building rockets that do not use it. I want to make more realistic like rockets and not have to rely on Asparagus staging. Is building rockets that put landers on Mun and stuff pretty easy to do? How do you cram all that DeltaV into a rocket without making it a 5 mile high rocket?

 

Anyways, lets hear your tips and pointers on building rockets that DO NOT use asparagus staging. I'm talking some SpaceX or Soyuz rocket style designs I guess.

[GoSlash27]

GunnDawg,

 Foxster has a good basic tutorial on the design process here:

Just start at the end of the mission and work your way backwards.

Stage design is actually easier with series staging because there's no complicated mixing of different engine types firing simultaneously. You just figure out the DV budget for a stage and add it in series.

Best,

-Slashy

[Superfluous J]

The trick is to be efficient. Asparagus is very efficient, but there are more ways than just that to be efficient.

1. You can make sure your rocket is aerodynamic.
2. You can make sure your payload is as small as possible to do the job.
3. You can make sure you're doing an efficient launch.
4. You can make sure you're doing an efficient transfer.
5. You can make sure you're doing an efficient landing.
6. You can make sure you're doing an efficient return.
7. You can rebuild your ship, taking account of all of the above, to achieve an even smaller craft.

[Xavven]

Hm, well it's not that unrealistic actually. A small version of "asparagus" is going to be used in the Falcon Heavy by SpaceX. Here's an except from http://www.spacex.com/falcon-heavy:

 

Propellant Cross-Feed System

For missions involving exceptionally heavy payloads—greater than 45,000 kilograms or 100,000 pounds—Falcon Heavy offers a unique cross-feed propellant system. Propellant feeds from the side boosters to the center core so that the center core retains a significant amount of fuel after the boosters separate.

 

And don't forget the Space Shuttle cross fed fuel out of the external tank (the big orange tank in the middle). While that's more like a drop tank than "asparagus" I wouldn't put it beyond engineers to slap an engine below the "drop tank" and boom -- it's asparagus now.

 

Alright then, to answer your question, I get more delta-v and oomph out of my first stage by building solid boosters around a central liquid engine core. This is my go-to design and I hardly ever use asparagus unless I'm trying to eek out every last efficiency that I can (this is almost required on things like an Eve ascent vehicle). It's quite easy to put Kerbals on Mun without building a 5 mile high rocket. You just have to have balance between building up and building radially. You can do pretty much everything in the game without asparagus, even a Jool 5 challenge.

[Temstar]

Back in souposphere days it took 4500m/s of delta-V just to make it to orbit, your average asparagus staged launch vehicle back then had a payload fraction of 15% with the absolute limit around 17%, and this is with more powerful engines than we have today.

These days it takes less than 3500m/s of delta-V to make orbit and asparagus staging rocktets can get over 26% payload fraction, even normal two stage serial staging vehicle can reach more than 20% payload fraction. So it is now so much easier to reach space that serial staging is perfectly fine. You only need asparagus staging if you really want to chase that last 6-7% of payload fraction.

[Shamus6200]

I learned to asparagus early on in .90 when I first started playing, and go pretty ridiculous with it,...there were tanks feeding in to tanks which in turn fed in to tanks and so on. It was ugly. I eventually decided to clean things up and rarely if ever even use the yellow fuel line thingies anymore. I'm not saying asparagus style setups are bad, but the way I was using them was sad and not the least bit elegant.

[Rocket In My Pocket]

Quote

How to play without asparagus staging?

Step 1: Don't use asparagus staging.

Step 2: ?

Step 3: Profit.

[Superfluous J]

34 minutes ago, Xavven said:

For missions involving exceptionally heavy payloads—greater than 45,000 kilograms or 100,000 pounds—Falcon Heavy offers a unique cross-feed propellant system. Propellant feeds from the side boosters to the center core so that the center core retains a significant amount of fuel after the boosters separate.

That's not "Asparagus" though. that's 2 side tanks pumping fuel into the center. In "true" asparagus there are at least 2 sets of side tanks, usually 3, and sometimes a ridiculous amount. They pump fuel not into the center, but into each other in a line until the final set pumps into the center. THAT is what is not super realistic for at LEAST the reason that it would introduce torque in the ship, pumping fuel around in a circle like that.

[Grenartia]

I can usually build a lot of things without Asparagus (I actually never learned how to do it). Anything that's too heavy (which, considering I use SpaceY, is lolridiculous to say, at least in sandbox) is launched in parts and assembled in orbit. Really, the hardest thing I've found is accommodating oddly sized payloads, but even stock fairings take care of that.

[GunnDawg]

10 minutes ago, Grenartia said:

I can usually build a lot of things without Asparagus (I actually never learned how to do it). Anything that's too heavy (which, considering I use SpaceY, is lolridiculous to say, at least in sandbox) is launched in parts and assembled in orbit. Really, the hardest thing I've found is accommodating oddly sized payloads, but even stock fairings take care of that.

Assembled in space? How?

[razark]

5 minutes ago, GunnDawg said:

Assembled in space? How?

Docking ports.

[problemecium]

Ye Olde Docking Port is how.

If you don't know how to dock, don't resign yourself to never docking. It's well worth learning how, and it gets easier with practice. So learn the basics of docking, then divide your ship into modules based on what needs to get done, e.g.: Kerbin-Mun transfer stage, Mun lander, Mun-Minmus transfer stage, Minmus lander (or whatever applies to your mission plan); then launch each module individually, put them all in a circular orbit around Kerbin, and dock each one together until the whole ship is done.

[Der Anfang]

37 minutes ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

Step 1: Don't use asparagus staging.

Step 2: ?

Step 3: Profit.

You're a smartS. I love you.

[Aethon]

Back before parts had a cost I asparagused everything, but since cost came in I haven't used asparagus staging once.  

 

 

 

 

Here's my overbuilt lander for Mun and Minmus with the procedural fairing removed so you can see the goodies inside .  It has way more dv than is needed for either.  There is enough that I can land it intact back on Kerbin from either Mun or Minmus for full recovery value.  It's pretty low tech.  Note the drogue on top.  Early in career I do without it.  It also has an emergency heat shield in case it flips nose prograde before the flames subside.

 

 

It probably has enough fuel to land on (but not return from) Duna.  The main stack is powered by a skipper and makes orbit without using any of the landers' fuel, with the added bonus of having just enough dv to return the booster for a powered splashdown near KSC under the radial parachutes.  

Hope this helps, and welcome to the forums.

 

Edited December 31, 2015 by Aethon

[Xavven]

1 hour ago, 5thHorseman said:

That's not "Asparagus" though. that's 2 side tanks pumping fuel into the center. In "true" asparagus there are at least 2 sets of side tanks, usually 3, and sometimes a ridiculous amount. They pump fuel not into the center, but into each other in a line until the final set pumps into the center. THAT is what is not super realistic for at LEAST the reason that it would introduce torque in the ship, pumping fuel around in a circle like that.

True, it's not asparagus in the strict sense, but it has crossfeed with engines on the tanks feeding the core. I don't think there are a whole lot of engineering hurdles to add another stage in there. Gimballed engines can counter the torque easily.

All I'm saying is, don't limit your imagination just because someone hasn't done it IRL yet. Sure, there are some silly things in KSP that would only ever work in a video game, but I can't count the number of times I've come up with a design and said, "well, this is dumb because nobody would build that IRL," only to do some research and find out that it WAS done IRL but another design just beat it because it was a tiny bit better, or cheaper, or whatever.

[Norcalplanner]

Lots of good tips and tricks are in my tutorial thread: Rules of Thumb for Building Cheap & Cheerful Rockets.

For a mun mission, you can get a workable 2.5m rocket with a lot of delta V using the following simple formula:

1. Put any 1 or 2 man capsule on top of a Rockomax 16 with a Terrier on the bottom.  Add bits and bobs to make it a lander, with several thousand m/s of delta V (enough to get from Mun orbit to the surface, back to Mun orbit, and back to Kerbin).  Be sure to include a heat shield, but empty out 2/3 of the ablator in the VAB.

2. Put on an orbital insertion/ transfer stage consisting of 3/4 of an orange tank with a Poodle.  Add a fairing to the top of this stage (below the decoupler) and enclose the lander.

3. Add a lifter stage with two or more orange tanks on top of a Mainsail.  Keep adding fuel tanks until the TWR is just below 1.

4. Add two or more Kickbacks with radial decouplers and nose cones, then thrust limit them in the VAB to achieve an initial TWR in the 1.3 - 1.4 range.  Make sure that the TWR of the center stack is at least 1.2 when the SRBs burn out.

5. Check staging and launch!

[Grenartia]

2 hours ago, parameciumkid said:

Ye Olde Docking Port is how.

If you don't know how to dock, don't resign yourself to never docking. It's well worth learning how, and it gets easier with practice. So learn the basics of docking, then divide your ship into modules based on what needs to get done, e.g.: Kerbin-Mun transfer stage, Mun lander, Mun-Minmus transfer stage, Minmus lander (or whatever applies to your mission plan); then launch each module individually, put them all in a circular orbit around Kerbin, and dock each one together until the whole ship is done.

Honestly, I just let MechJeb do it for me.

[AlamoVampire]

I use asparagus every now and again, and really dont see a real reason why not to. can it be expensive in a career game? ya, but, sometimes its the only way to punt the heaviest of things skyward. BUT since i avoid career mode as it has no real draw for me, cost isnt a concern. Once Tiberion is feeling better and has more time, he will update Novapunch, which has some rather large parts up to 5m in size, which is a good side path past asparagus if so inclined. Right now, its updated <far as i know at least> for 1.0.2 and one of its engines the m40 i think it is, is a bit glitchy right now causing some lag, but most of the parts work with 1.0.5.

[Kenobi McCormick]

Play within your processor's limits and abuse the ARM parts. I have yet to need asparagus staging to put any payload into LKO that my CPU could handle at a reasonable framerate, hell my lifters can put more parts up there than that by a large margin.

[Norcalplanner]

Just did a quick build showing what I described:

 

[Norcalplanner]

19 minutes ago, AlamoVampire said:

I use asparagus every now and again, and really dont see a real reason why not to. can it be expensive in a career game? ya, but, sometimes its the only way to punt the heaviest of things skyward. BUT since i avoid career mode as it has no real draw for me, cost isnt a concern. Once Tiberion is feeling better and has more time, he will update Novapunch, which has some rather large parts up to 5m in size, which is a good side path past asparagus if so inclined. Right now, its updated <far as i know at least> for 1.0.2 and one of its engines the m40 i think it is, is a bit glitchy right now causing some lag, but most of the parts work with 1.0.5.

SpaceY is working right now and includes a bunch of 5 meter parts.  SpaceY extended adds 7.5 meter parts if you're feeling particularly adventurous.

[AlamoVampire]

i might check out SpaceY but, like I said, hehe, only 1 engine is giving me issues atm and thats just the mod being out of date. with the new vector engine, i can work around a buggy motor XD but, i appreciate the suggestion @Norcalplanner

[Alshain]

I've got lifters ranging from 1 ton to 180 tonnes payload capability.  None of them use Asparagus or more than 2 Liquid Fuel Engines

 

My usual build for success is:

1. A lower stage capable of getting you to ~20 to 30km before discarding.  This will have your higher powered engines (LV-T Series, Skipper, Mainsail, Twin Boar, Mammoth)
2. An upper stage for getting to final orbit.  This will have your high orbit/space efficiency engine (Terrier, Poodle, Skipper,  Rhino)
3. Radially attached Solid Rocket Boosters as needed to augment TWR and fuel.

Tips and Tricks:

• Pack us much fuel as you can onto the upper stage.  It's the more efficient option and it results in a smaller, cheaper rocket.  If you need to take away fuel, do it from the bottom stage but don't take away too much.  You still have to reach a good altitude for that upper engine to be more efficient.  It's a game of balance and it may take several launches per rocket to test and figure out the best mix of lower and upper stage.
• You will notice I listed the Skipper in both #1 and #2.  That is not a mistake.
• Use SRBs sparingly, the SRBs are relatively cheap but the decouplers are not.  However, if you are carrying more mass and simply need boosters, use SR Boosters not LF Boosters as the engines are way more expensive.
• If you find yourself loading up on SRBs, it may be more cost effective to go up a size range (i.e. from 1.25m to 2m).  None of my lifters have more than 6 SRBs, most of those are in the Mammoth engine range.  My lower ranges usually cap out at 4 before using the next size up is better cost wise.
• The above plan is just for lifters to LKO.  Your payload should count any fuel it needs in the mass lifting capability of the lifter.  So if you are going to a moon for example, all the fuel and engines to get there is 'payload'.
• Use the NRAP Test Weight mod, build the lifter separate, save it as a sub-assembly for reuse (make sure you include relevant lifting capabilities in it's description). I can't stress this one enough.

Good Engine Pairings

This is not an exhaustive list but these engines go well together at various payload masses.  If the pairing isn't listed it's probably because one that is listed would be a better choice.

(Lower/Upper Stage)

• LV-T30/Terrier
• LV-T45/Terrier
• Skipper/Poodle
• Mainsail/Poodle
• Mainsail/Skipper
• Twin Boar/Skipper
• Mammoth/Skipper
• Mammoth/Rhino

 

Edited December 31, 2015 by Alshain

[GunnDawg]

Well I had an attempt at building a rocket without asparagus staging and getting it to the Mun. It made it! Lifter stage, orbit stage, then final was a transfer stage.

Screenshot: http://i.imgur.com/aAVegLh.jpg

[Superfluous J]

55 minutes ago, GunnDawg said:

Well I had an attempt at building a rocket without asparagus staging and getting it to the Mun. It made it! Lifter stage, orbit stage, then final was a transfer stage.

Screenshot: http://i.imgur.com/aAVegLh.jpg

Nice! I don't have much flying time with that bottom booster, but my gut's telling me it's way overpowered for the job. You can probably get by with a Skipper there, or maybe a Mainsail.

And this isn't landing on Mun, right? You can toss the landing gear, and just land the pod on Kerbin when done. Then you don't have to carry those all the way to Mun and back.