New Shepard derived orbital rocket.

[Kaos]

Furthermore, in the article they just add cross-feed fueling, as it would make nothing complicated. To my knowledge no cross-feed fueling system with engines on both tanks (the source and the goal) made it to space, yet.

I wounder since a while, why no one tried liquid fuel landable boosters with a strong structure, hence smaller delta-v. This is the design concept of the new shepard. Nevertheless I think it might be complicated to adapt and cheaper to design a new rocket; experience from new shepard might help, though.

But to act as main stage, a lot of the rocket might need a redesign.

[fredinno]

2 hours ago, Kaos said:

Furthermore, in the article they just add cross-feed fueling, as it would make nothing complicated. To my knowledge no cross-feed fueling system with engines on both tanks (the source and the goal) made it to space, yet.

I wounder since a while, why no one tried liquid fuel landable boosters with a strong structure, hence smaller delta-v. This is the design concept of the new shepard. Nevertheless I think it might be complicated to adapt and cheaper to design a new rocket; experience from new shepard might help, though.

But to act as main stage, a lot of the rocket might need a redesign.

It's also probably going to be expensive, even with reuse, what with using Hydrogen and all.

[Exoscientist]

On January 9, 2016 at 9:17 PM, Kaos said:

Furthermore, in the article they just add cross-feed fueling, as it would make nothing complicated. To my knowledge no cross-feed fueling system with engines on both tanks (the source and the goal) made it to space, yet.

I wounder since a while, why no one tried liquid fuel landable boosters with a strong structure, hence smaller delta-v. This is the design concept of the new shepard. Nevertheless I think it might be complicated to adapt and cheaper to design a new rocket; experience from new shepard might help, though.

But to act as main stage, a lot of the rocket might need a redesign.

 

 Without cross-feed, the payload estimator gives a value of 2,500 kg to orbit, which matches the payload of the Arianespace Vega, at a fraction of the price.

 

  Bob Clark

[Exoscientist]

I had earlier estimated the New Shepard could form an orbital rocket using three cores:

 

Triple Cored New Shepard as an orbital vehicle.

http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2016/01/triple-cored-new-shepard-as-orbital.html

 

 But Jonathan Goff on Selenianboondocks.com raised the possibility that a single New Shepard could serve as a first stage booster for an orbital rocket. This would cut costs since it would be reusable as is the F9 first stage. 

 

I estimate New Shepard could indeed be a booster to orbit using a hydrolox upper stage half-size to the Centaur resulting in a 1 to 2 metric ton payload. Such an upper stage already exists in the Ariane H10-3:

 

New Shepard as a booster for an orbital launcher.

http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2016/01/triple-cored-new-shepard-as-orbital.html

 

 Using one of the larger Star solid rocket upper stages, New Shepard probably could send a few hundred kilos to LEO as a booster. This would be a faster, cheaper implementation for getting an orbital rocket from the New Shepard though due to the small payload it would have a small market. Still with reusability of the booster lowering costs, it's possible it could have a market for nanosats.

 

 Plus, it might beat SpaceX again, this time reusing a booster for an orbital launch.

 

  Bob Clark

Edited February 1, 2016 by Exoscientist

[Nibb31]

When New Shepard is at the top of its apex, by definition, its speed is practically zero. If you were to release an upper stage at that point, the stage would still have to carry 7 km/s of dV to reach orbital speed. Basically, it would be just a glorified air launch.

Staging events occur when the rocket is at its peak velocity, which for New Shepard doesn't exceed Mach 3 and at a much lower altitude than the 100km apogee. Falcon 9 stages at approximately 100km altitude, but it's going at Mach 10 (expendable) or Mach 6 (recoverable). The upper stage only has to handle ~4 to 5 km/s.

I'd like to see a 2 ton rocket that would have 7 km/s of dV. The Ariane or Start upper stages have nowhere near that capability with or without any significant payload.

[Exoscientist]

 This report gives some possible values for the mass of the New Shepard and the capsule. I took the max of the listed values.

Final Supplemental Environmental Assessment for the Blue Origin West Texas Launch Site. February 2014 .

2.1.1 RLV Launches Blue Origin is engaged in a long-term RLV development program, and contemplates launching vehicles of various sizes and configurations. Vehicles may include experimental configurations, prototypes, and commercial launches. The specific size and configuration is expected to change as flight test results are received. In general, the various sizes and configurations of development and commercial RLVs launched would be similar to the vehicle described in the 2006 EA. For example, the RLV would consist of a propulsion module (PM) and a crew capsule (CC) (see Exhibit 2-1). Different propulsion modules may be flown with different crew capsules, and there may be flights that would consist only of the propulsion module or only of the CC. This Supplemental EA does not attempt to assess detailed information on each prototype, configuration and/or combination of PM and CC, but rather uses the largest contemplated vehicle configuration as the basis for assessing environmental impact. Propulsion modules are expected to stand between 45 and 75 feet high and weigh between 20,000 and 30,000 pounds, carrying between 30,000 and 45,000 pounds of LOx and between 7,000 and 15,000 pounds of LH2. A propulsion module would use one or more engines that would produce a total thrust of up to approximately 300,000 pounds-force. CCs are expected to stand between 8 and 20 feet high and would weigh between 8,000 and 12,000 pounds (see Exhibit 2-2). A CC would carry between 600 and 650 pounds of hydroxylterminated polybutadiene (HTPB), a solid propellant. A CC would use one or more solid rocket motors that would produce a total thrust of up to approximately 120,000 pounds-force.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ast/media/Blue_Origin_Supplemental_EA_and_FONSI.pdf

 You still need the Isp of the BE-3 engine. You could estimate it as comparable to that the RL-10-A5, the sea level version of the RL-10 used on the DC-X, since they are both low chamber pressure, hydrolox engines, that have to operate at sea level.

  You can calculate the new Shepard has a several thousand m/s delta-v even carrying an upper stage. You can calculate also with the delta-v these upper stages can reach, it would be sufficient to reach orbit.

 

  Bob Clark

[fredinno]

9 hours ago, Exoscientist said:

I had earlier estimated the New Shepard could form an orbital rocket using three cores:

 

Triple Cored New Shepard as an orbital vehicle.

http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2016/01/triple-cored-new-shepard-as-orbital.html

 

 But Jonathan Goff on Selenianboondocks.com raised the possibility that a single New Shepard could serve as a first stage booster for an orbital rocket. This would cut costs since it would be reusable as is the F9 first stage. 

 

I estimate New Shepard could indeed be a booster to orbit using a hydrolox upper stage half-size to the Centaur resulting in a 1 to 2 metric ton payload. Such an upper stage already exists in the Ariane H10-3:

 

New Shepard as a booster for an orbital launcher.

http://exoscientist.blogspot.com/2016/01/triple-cored-new-shepard-as-orbital.html

 

 Using one of the larger Star solid rocket upper stages, New Shepard probably could send a few hundred kilos to LEO as a booster. This would be a faster, cheaper implementation for getting an orbital rocket from the New Shepard though due to the small payload it would have a small market. Still with reusability of the booster lowering costs, it's possible it could have a market for nanosats.

 

 Plus, it might beat SpaceX again, this time reusing a booster for an orbital launch.

 

  Bob Clark

 

8 hours ago, Nibb31 said:

When New Shepard is at the top of its apex, by definition, its speed is practically zero. If you were to release an upper stage at that point, the stage would still have to carry 7 km/s of dV to reach orbital speed. Basically, it would be just a glorified air launch.

Staging events occur when the rocket is at its peak velocity, which for New Shepard doesn't exceed Mach 3 and at a much lower altitude than the 100km apogee. Falcon 9 stages at approximately 100km altitude, but it's going at Mach 10 (expendable) or Mach 6 (recoverable). The upper stage only has to handle ~4 to 5 km/s.

I'd like to see a 2 ton rocket that would have 7 km/s of dV. The Ariane or Start upper stages have nowhere near that capability with or without any significant payload.

You'd need something like Pegasus, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegasus_%28rocket%29

which is 18T. However, New Shepard's capsule is only a bit smaller than the PPTS, which is also meant for LEO, and has a 7.7T capsule, so the rocket would have to be smaller than 7T. Maybe a few cubesats would fit on it, even if the 2nd and 3rd stages were H2 O2.

You need boosters, or another engine on the 1st stage.

https://www.blueorigin.com/technology

http://www.russianspaceweb.com/ppts.html

On 1/10/2016 at 2:43 AM, Exoscientist said:

 

 Without cross-feed, the payload estimator gives a value of 2,500 kg to orbit, which matches the payload of the Arianespace Vega, at a fraction of the price.

 

  Bob Clark

Did you use attitude compensation? That site really abuses attitude compensation a lot to get higher numbers...