Nertea

[1.10.x] Kerbal Atomics: fancy nuclear engines! (August 2, 2020)

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5 hours ago, Blackline said:

My nukes do show exhaust effects while being switched off, (known) bug or my problem?

I noticed that myself. However the problem is now gone. I'm sorry, I don't remember exactly what I did, but I was messing around with patch files and reinstalling the latest versions of a bunch of mods. 

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KerbalAtomics 0.4.5

  • Updated bundled B9PartSwitch to 1.9.0
  • Updated bundled MM to 2.8.1
  • Fixed missing @ in NFElectrical patch for Eel
  • CryoTanks 0.4.4
    •  Fixed dry mass of LH2-only ZBO tanks

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On 7/4/2017 at 4:34 PM, Nertea said:

 I tested and failed to reproduce this, both modes convert well to LF and LFO in my install.

EDIT: Sorry, my bad! After doing some digging, I realize I made a mistake and everything is working correctly now. I didn't follow your carefully crafted instructions!  Now that I've placed the entire NTRsUseLF folder directly into Gamedata everything is working perfectly. Thank you for the mods and for the support!! :D

Edited by Chimichanga
i r dum

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Hey there

I actually came here via the CKAN link for the mod Dynamic Battery Storage, which points here as it's homepage. Since I can't find any information on what Dynamic Battery Storage does, does anyone here know where the correct homepage is for that mod, or if it doesn't have one, can someone tell me what it does? Author is listed as Nertea, so at least I hope I'm in the ballpark?

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43 minutes ago, strudo76 said:

Hey there

I actually came here via the CKAN link for the mod Dynamic Battery Storage, which points here as it's homepage. Since I can't find any information on what Dynamic Battery Storage does, does anyone here know where the correct homepage is for that mod, or if it doesn't have one, can someone tell me what it does? Author is listed as Nertea, so at least I hope I'm in the ballpark?

Dynamic Battery Storage is made by Nertea. Below is an explanation from him of what it does.

Quote

DBS is for managing any kind of large passive electricity draws. Without it some of the larger cryo tanks (say anything above ~40-50 Ec/x draw) will start malfunctioning at high timewarp due to the stock resource handling. So it's a shared dependency in any of my mods that deal with passive Ec consumption like NFElectrical, CryoTanks (CE/KA) and FFT.

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Hello,

I'm currently using Kerbal Atomics 0.3.5 with the NFE patch (sadly am forced to stay in KSP 1.22) and I had a question about how I can calculate the required amount of radiator cooling for Kerbal Atomic engines such as the Emancipator at ship design time in the VAB? I know that with NFE reactors, you need to have enough cumulative Core Heat xFer to be >= the Required Cooling stat of the reactor. This is quite logical and easy to plan for.

However, I'm not sure how to make a similar calculation for the Emancipator engine (or any of the other NTRs). How can I calculate how much cumulative Core Heat xFer of radiators I will need for any given NTR? Would greatly appreciate any help possible with this.

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6 hours ago, TheRagingIrishman said:

Dynamic Battery Storage is made by Nertea. Below is an explanation from him of what it does.

@Nertea would you like to go a bit into detail, how exactly you managed to overcome that problem? Did you do it similar to @FreeThinker's dynamic wasteheat-storage changing?

I'd like to know, because I have exactly the same problems with my Realbattery mod and haven't found a (simple) solution yet. And the DBS source is quite big and would take a lot time to understand, a small inspiring words from you would help a lot to speed things up. Cheers!

PS: anyone ever thought about confronting SQUAD with that issue/limitation?

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@Blackline, sorry for the slow answer, I was occupied with NFLV release. 

Here's my internal description of DBS, hope it helps.

DynamicBatteryStorage: A plugin that works around the problems of stock electricity consumption/generation at high time warp by monitoring electricity consumption and production.

  • Artificially and temporarily expands the storage of a EC containing part in the ship to buffer EC use at high timewarp if the total vessel storage is not sufficient (defined as total storage < total generation * current physics tick)
  • Enabled at 100x warp and higher
  • Debug panel with CTRL+SHIFT+K
  • Monitors EC draws and consumptions
  • Supports the following generators (modded in red): ModuleResourceConverter, ModuleGenerator, ModuleDeployableSolarPanel, ModuleCurvedSolarPanel, FissionGenerator, RadioisotopeGenerator
  • Supports the following consumers (modded in red): ModuleResourceConverter, ModuleResourceHarvester, ModuleGenerator, ModuleActiveRadiator, ModuleCryoTank, ModuleAntimatterTank
  • Aims only to support relatively high draws during non-physics warp, so no support planned for things like ModuleLight, ModuleCommand
  • Other power-consuming or producing module support to be considered

I've mentioned this to Squad staff on more than one occasion, it would require a rewrite of the whole vessel resources system to fix it. Not on the table.

Edited by Nertea

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Would Dynamic Battery Storage clash with Background Processing? I was using that mod, but every time I went to my craft, they were drained of EC. Not sure if it's just bad design on my part of if there was something funky going on.

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Awesome @Nertea, really impressive. If that's ok with you, my plan would be to PR your DBS to support my Module RealBattery as a generator AND consumer and make it a dependency to the mod.

Need to ask CKAN guys to play with the meta, in order to get DBS as a standalone mod.

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57 minutes ago, Blackline said:

Need to ask CKAN guys to play with the meta, in order to get DBS as a standalone mod.

It's on CKAN, but it has weird version numbers due to sharing the Kerbal Atomics download (and no way to force-overwrite it with info from .version)

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Howdy,

I really love the engines in this bundle but the altered LH2 mechanics aren't to my taste. I'm using the included extra that reverts the KA engines to LF, but my USI nuclear engines are still being penalized according to KA's LH2 mechanic. Is there a way I can disable the LH2 density change entirely?

Thanks!

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@Nertea does this (https://github.com/ChrisAdderley/CryoTanks/blob/master/Source/ModuleSimpleBoiloff.cs#L140) mean, that you need a big enough EC storage to cool all the LH2 for the time someone is unloaded on rails? No change you can remember the last status of cooling (like LastUpdateTime) the vessel was loaded, and then decide if you want to boiloff or not?

Im just asking, because im sending a LH2/LOX mothership to duna unattended, flying other missions during that year.

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I was just playing around with this again and try as I might, I had terrible boiloff problems unless I had a nuclear reactor for power. You can do it with solar cells, but you have to be very careful that you have enough ec storage to handle any time your ship is in the shadow of a planet or moon. For me, it was simply safest to slap a small nuclear reactor on it. For smaller ships I used the smallest one available, stripped out the fuel down to 10%, then ran the reactor at only around 5% power. (Need to turn it up to 100% on launch to get the heat up, then dial it back down). Don't forget enough radiators!

Makes a better solution than an RTG. Honestly why RTGs are higher up the tech tree than reactors is beyond me. We had RTGs in what the 60s?

Oh, and on my last drone tanker run because I lacked a constant power source, I ran out of ec entirely. This caused the drone core to just die. I've yet to figure out a way to resurrect it, even when energy is returned or with capacitors. So I just always have at least a small nuke/RTG. Keeps my drones alive. 

Edited by AmpCat

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I have  a picture of a constellation style Transferstage, for all the people having trouble getting into the LH2 and boiloff mechanics (NFE patch in KA extras folder):

You see here:

- KerbalAtomics LH2 only cryo tank (1), needs around 22 ec/s for cooling, allways, no matter if tank is nearly depleted
- KerbalAtomics Neptune engines (3), here running on LH2, inbuilt radiators are allways on (staged once)
- NFelectrics small nuclear reactor (1) running at least 50%, 30 ec/s for all the systems mentioned
- HeatControl curved radiators large (3) which are allways running, for good reasons...

Omy3pkH.png

- To get thrust from the Neptunes, inbuilt radiators must be on preferably, the reactors + the engines must be started and gain temperature (larger than 500° then fast increasing), when they are hot enough throttle can be opened and voila, we have nice thrust.

- ActionGroups are your friend running this system.

- Make sure to shut down the reactors and the engines after finishing burntime immediatly, or they will suffer serious corehealth damage after short time! 

- Let radiators running all day long, or you will regret it after time warping...

- Neptunes have quite a large storage of enriched uranium, this can be lowered significantly for short missions

I hope this can clear up some issues for the curious

Edited by Mikki

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On 7/9/2017 at 0:10 AM, Blackline said:

@Nertea does this (https://github.com/ChrisAdderley/CryoTanks/blob/master/Source/ModuleSimpleBoiloff.cs#L140) mean, that you need a big enough EC storage to cool all the LH2 for the time someone is unloaded on rails? No change you can remember the last status of cooling (like LastUpdateTime) the vessel was loaded, and then decide if you want to boiloff or not?

Im just asking, because im sending a LH2/LOX mothership to duna unattended, flying other missions during that year.

No that just tests to see if you have enough power for one physics frame of cooling. Really just a tests for "did you have power at all". It's not very sophisticated. If you didn't have that power, then it will remove the appropriate amount of fuel. 

On 7/9/2017 at 11:07 AM, AmpCat said:

I was just playing around with this again and try as I might, I had terrible boiloff problems unless I had a nuclear reactor for power. You can do it with solar cells, but you have to be very careful that you have enough ec storage to handle any time your ship is in the shadow of a planet or moon. For me, it was simply safest to slap a small nuclear reactor on it. For smaller ships I used the smallest one available, stripped out the fuel down to 10%, then ran the reactor at only around 5% power. (Need to turn it up to 100% on launch to get the heat up, then dial it back down). Don't forget enough radiators!

Makes a better solution than an RTG. Honestly why RTGs are higher up the tech tree than reactors is beyond me. We had RTGs in what the 60s?

Oh, and on my last drone tanker run because I lacked a constant power source, I ran out of ec entirely. This caused the drone core to just die. I've yet to figure out a way to resurrect it, even when energy is returned or with capacitors. So I just always have at least a small nuke/RTG. Keeps my drones alive. 

Another question to look at is whether you absolutely need 100% ZBO. If you have enough power for 2/3 of the dark period, you're effectively cutting loss by something like 85% depending on the planet (you have full cooling for the whole daylit side, the edges and 2/3 of the dark). Depending on your requirements, that might be enough. Of course, if you're 100000x timewarping in orbit waiting for a transfer window, that could be tough. 

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12 hours ago, Nertea said:

No that just tests to see if you have enough power for one physics frame of cooling. Really just a tests for "did you have power at all". It's not very sophisticated. If you didn't have that power, then it will remove the appropriate amount of fuel. 

Right, my bad, I missinterpreted fixedDeltaTime.

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On 06/07/2017 at 10:57 AM, trias702 said:

Hello,

I'm currently using Kerbal Atomics 0.3.5 with the NFE patch (sadly am forced to stay in KSP 1.22) and I had a question about how I can calculate the required amount of radiator cooling for Kerbal Atomic engines such as the Emancipator at ship design time in the VAB? I know that with NFE reactors, you need to have enough cumulative Core Heat xFer to be >= the Required Cooling stat of the reactor. This is quite logical and easy to plan for.

However, I'm not sure how to make a similar calculation for the Emancipator engine (or any of the other NTRs). How can I calculate how much cumulative Core Heat xFer of radiators I will need for any given NTR? Would greatly appreciate any help possible with this.

 

@Nertea Am very sorry to trouble you, but could I please ask for your help with my above quoted issue?

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@trias702 hi there, i would encourage you to download the Heat Control mod from Nertea...

I have used the emancipator in 1.2 and this engine requires at least 8 of the largest solid radiator panels provided in this mod.
Yes you read it right, 8 of them... actually more to be safe. Rather 10...

Hold on, i have a pic...

You should be able to calculate the estimated hardware needs by the provided infos in the VAB/SPH ..:)

Spoiler

VDNQS9N.png

 

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2 minutes ago, Mikki said:

hi there, i would encourage you to download the Heat Control mod from Nertea...

Great suggestion, will take a look at that mod :)

2 minutes ago, Mikki said:

You should be able to calculate the estimated hardware needs by the provided infos in the VAB/SPH ..:)

But how do I do this? Which numbers do I need to focus on? The Emancipator engine has an optimal temp of 18000K and a cooling need of (I think) 1125000 KW (the NFE config file mentions HeatGeneration = 56250000, not sure which number is the important one). So do I need radiators which cumulatively add up to all of that? And which number on the radiator parts should I focus on, Core Heat xFer or Max Cooling?

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21 hours ago, trias702 said:

Great suggestion, will take a look at that mod :)

But how do I do this? Which numbers do I need to focus on? The Emancipator engine has an optimal temp of 18000K and a cooling need of (I think) 1125000 KW (the NFE config file mentions HeatGeneration = 56250000, not sure which number is the important one). So do I need radiators which cumulatively add up to all of that? And which number on the radiator parts should I focus on, Core Heat xFer or Max Cooling?

Max cooling on radiators,... the heattransfer out of the reactor can take a long time if you observe the digits precisely... its quite complicated true :D After finishing burntime occurs a point where heatgeneration and heattransfer/cooling capacity cross each other during cooling (Use KER heat menu!), if this point exceeds temperatures (due to insufficient cooling capacity) above the critical coreheat your reactor blows up in spectacular way and your rear end with it basically. This can take up to 15 minutes in the game, timewarping during this time is dangerous while having the vessel focussed.
EDIT: Looks like i`ve used this engine only by chance properly... omg! :blush:

Sorry but its really complicated, using the emancipator has advantages but also some "minor" issues for the user, i think this is intended and balances the engine for performance.

Edited by Mikki
occasional stupidity8D

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@trias702 A portion of my tutorial can answer your question about balancing radiators to engines. It covers many things across the spectrum of Nertea's mods and it has pictures to help you see what's what.

 

Edited by JadeOfMaar

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8 hours ago, trias702 said:

@Nertea Am very sorry to trouble you, but could I please ask for your help with my above quoted issue?

Sorry I missed this. You calculate the required cooling in exactly the same way as NFE, but these numbers are much, much higher. Using the integration patch, the Emancipator's reactor needs, yeah about 1,125 megawatts of heat rejection. That's fairly ridiculous to actively cool at full power and it's not intended that you do so. The most powerful radiator in HeatControl dumps 8 MW of heat, you would need 140 of those. However, the engine itself will dump 100% of the generated heat when it's on and operating at full thrust, so you only need to pack enough reactors for whatever "idle" level you wish to run the reactor at. If you are willing to shut the reactor down completely after each burn you need zero radiators. If you want to run idle at 1% to be ready for a burn you need 11.25 MW.

It's weird, i've noticed that people immediately jump to using the absolute best engine, which has the most difficult heat parameters to work with. Walk before you run, try out the new mechanics with an easier engine :P. 

12 hours ago, AmpCat said:

@Nertea, Not sure if this is a typo or not, but the H500-576 hydrogen tank costs 13,256, and stores 288k units of hydrogen. The huge spherical H1000-1152 tank stores twice as much, at 574k units, but costs a whooping 174,512. Not sure if this is just paying more for coolness, inverse economy of scale, or a 10x typo in the cost.

Also, the H375-144, when using the compact meshes (but not the bare) has the surface attachment nodes at a 2.5m diameter, rather than 3.75m like the other model skin variants.

Yeah it looks like the two 5m tanks are improperly costed, the 10m is also off, but only by a few thousand funds. For the second one it took me quite a while to understand what you meant, but just to confirm, you mean that the height of the attach node in the Compact variant is too low, it should be the "higher" node that is the same for the Basic variants.

11 hours ago, mikegarrison said:

[This may actually be more relevant to Kerbal Atomics. I'm not sure which engines are in which pack.]

So I tried out the dual-mode atomic lift/cruise rocket today. I stuck a bunch of LH2 tanks onto it and one O2 tank. I had no idea what the correct ratio should be, but I seem to have guessed OK.

First thing that happened is that I hit the stage button and ... nothing. I finally clicked on the NF menu button and found that I had to turn on the reactor and then let it heat up. OK.

So now we go to space! It launched and had great thrust levels, like 2.5g. And I had eyeballed the oxygen correctly, it seems, because it ran out at like 30km or so, where I didn't need so much thrust anymore. I had it in manual mode so it shut off, though. I later tried it again in automatic mode and it seamlessly switched to LH2 mode. Nice.

OK great. I had Mechjeb flying the ship, and it decided to coast a while and then circularize. But problem. Going into timewarp with the reactor turned on caused it to overheat and shut down.

I had not included any heat radiation on the ship. So I put some on and tried it again. Nope, again the reactor overheated and shut down as soon as I went into warp. Also, I lost electrical power because the reactor had been my only source for that.

So I tried turning down the reactor to a lower power. I found that I could turn it down to only a few percent and it would still put out 50 ec/s. However, when the engine started up again, the ISP had dropped to nothing. I guess it really needs the reactor at full power to generate the ISP.

All right, I decided I had figured this out. I would have the reactor turned up all the way for the burn, then turn it down for time warp. So what happened? As soon as I went above 100 timewarp my ship exploded. Every part of it was gone -- except for the reactor/engine itself!

So ... what's the intended behavior? Am I intended to have to restart the reactor every time I want to do a burn and then shut it down again when I'm done? Obviously that means I'll need another source of power, like an electrical generating reactor.

So you are using the advanced mode, with the optional NFE integration. You have to understand that this is not great for a first use thing, it has a lot of more involved components as you are realizing. You're seeing more or less the right behaviour, except for the whole ship exploding. That sounds like one of those weird KSP heat system quirks. It would help to know more about your ship, the parameters the reactor was running at, the amount of heat being dissipated by the exhaust, radiators, the state of the ship's temperature distribution before it went into warp...

I'm actively working on solving this, it's basically because KSP doesn't like two radiators pulling from the same part, and the exhaust is technically a radiator. Pretty annoying.

For the electricity generating engines, you can consult the part VAB window to see how much thermal power the generator needs. In general this is equal to running the reactor at 1%. You need to make sure to pack enough radiators capacity to run the reactor at 1% capacity, so if the Required Cooling is 10 MW, you need 100 kW of cooling. 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Nertea said:

Sorry I missed this. You calculate the required cooling in exactly the same way as NFE, but these numbers are much, much higher. Using the integration patch, the Emancipator's reactor needs, yeah about 1,125 megawatts of heat rejection. That's fairly ridiculous to actively cool at full power and it's not intended that you do so. The most powerful radiator in HeatControl dumps 8 MW of heat, you would need 140 of those. However, the engine itself will dump 100% of the generated heat when it's on and operating at full thrust, so you only need to pack enough reactors for whatever "idle" level you wish to run the reactor at. If you are willing to shut the reactor down completely after each burn you need zero radiators. If you want to run idle at 1% to be ready for a burn you need 11.25 MW.

Thank you very much for clarifying this, I greatly appreciate it!

Just two quick questions to follow up on what you said:

1) When looking at the radiator(s) to cool the Emancipator, should I be looking at the Core Heat xFer stat or Max Cooling stat of the radiator to apply against the hypothetical 11.25 MW (at 1% idle)? I know that in NFE, I only care about the Core Heat xFer stat when cooling reactors, but just want to confirm that it's the same for engines too.

2) When placing radiators on reactors in NFE for cooling, I can attach the radiators directly onto the reactor. However, I cannot attach radiators to the Emancipator engine, it won't let me. Therefore, where should I place the radiators for optimum cooling? Should it be on the next closest part connected to the Emancipator, or does proximity not matter, and I can place the radiators anywhere on my ship and they will cool the Emancipator just fine?

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