Our thoughts on KerbalStuff's closure

[The Beaver]

There will never be Steam Workshop because they have a userbase that doesn't have a steam copy.  Also Curse will always have more/better mods, no community site ever has or will, they have a dedicated paid staff.  It's the best option for the foreseeable future.

Edited February 20, 2016 by The Beaver

[Nothalogh]

On 2/17/2016 at 0:49 PM, KasperVld said:

our partnership with Curse

See, I don't think you grasp how absolutely distasteful using the Curse site is, it sends a message to the user that mods are viewed dimly by Squad.

 

[goldenpsp]

3 hours ago, Nothalogh said:

See, I don't think you grasp how absolutely distasteful using the Curse site is, it sends a message to the user that mods are viewed dimly by Squad.

 

Hyperbole aside, you aren't going to see Squad partnering with any sort of Kerbalstuff site at least until it moves beyond the "guy with a website stage".  Whether you like curse or not, they are a legitimate business.  that is one key component.  And it's not that it can make money, but it is that the company is larger than any one person.  It would be far more difficult for any one person at curse to decided they were done and take their ball and go home (which is what happened to Kerbalstuff).

[Nothalogh]

1 minute ago, goldenpsp said:

Hyperbole aside, you aren't going to see Squad partnering with any sort of Kerbalstuff site at least until it moves beyond the "guy with a website stage".  Whether you like curse or not, they are a legitimate business.  that is one key component.  And it's not that it can make money, but it is that the company is larger than any one person.  It would be far more difficult for any one person at curse to decided they were done and take their ball and go home (which is what happened to Kerbalstuff).

I am in no way suggesting that Squad should have partnered with Kerbalstuff, rather that Curse is objectionable on all levels.

I fact, I don't think squad should have an official mod host, let the people host wherever they please.

But rather they should integrate a CKAN like mod manager into the game, and then all they would have to do is run the database.

[Kerbart]

1 minute ago, Nothalogh said:

I fact, I don't think squad should have an official mod host, let the people host wherever they please.

Can't they do that right now? You're implying that Squad is blocking people from hosting their mods elsewhere? How else would the fact that there is an "official" mod host prevent people from hosting their mods wherever they please?

[Nothalogh]

1 minute ago, Kerbart said:

Can't they do that right now? You're implying that Squad is blocking people from hosting their mods elsewhere? How else would the fact that there is an "official" mod host prevent people from hosting their mods wherever they please?

No, that's not what I was implying, rather that there should be a host neutral official policy

[mcirish3]

8 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

Can't they do that right now? You're implying that Squad is blocking people from hosting their mods elsewhere? How else would the fact that there is an "official" mod host prevent people from hosting their mods wherever they please?

Your right, but I am not sure he meant it that way, since it would mean ignoring the obvious.  I think he meant, and @Nothalogh correct me if I am wrong,  Squad would do well to stop spending money on Curse and use those resources to proved a in game CKan type hosting platform that would enable users to download mods directly from a master database maintained by squad, without the whole web hosting thing. 

Edit: NM I was wrong.

Edited February 20, 2016 by mcirish3

[Nothalogh]

14 minutes ago, mcirish3 said:

Your right, but I am not sure he meant it that way, since it would mean ignoring the obvious.  I think he meant, and @Nothalogh correct me if I am wrong,  Squad would do well to stop spending money on Curse and use those resources to proved a in game CKan type hosting platform that would enable users to download mods directly from a master database maintained by squad, without the whole web hosting thing. 

Edit: NM I was wrong.

See, the beauty of SquadKAN is that it would free them up from having to host the mods, instead being just the database and the mod manager.

As for where people host their mods, the only concern should be that it has decent bandwidth. And that could be automatically tested by the backend software as a criteria for addition to the database.

 

Quote

CKan type hosting platform

I hope you realize that CKAN doesn't actually host anything.

 

And furthermore, SquadKAN could use peer to peer distribution where possible to further reduce host load.

Edited February 20, 2016 by Nothalogh

[Kerbart]

2 minutes ago, Nothalogh said:

No, that's not what I was implying, rather that there should be a host neutral official policy

That’s a no-win scenario. “First, Squad killed spaceport. Now they’re obviously implying they don’t like mods at all”

Not everyone has a server connected to the internet. Squad is doing the decent thing by providing an option for those that don't have options. Meanwhile, alternatives have appeared. Not all of those alternatives turned out to be viable. Should Squad signal hey, users, it's up to you guys. We don't care if there's a place to host mods. Good luck. What message is that?

[mcirish3]

 

31 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

That’s a no-win scenario. “First, Squad killed spaceport. Now they’re obviously implying they don’t like mods at all”

Not everyone has a server connected to the internet. Squad is doing the decent thing by providing an option for those that don't have options. Meanwhile, alternatives have appeared. Not all of those alternatives turned out to be viable. Should Squad signal hey, users, it's up to you guys. We don't care if there's a place to host mods. Good luck. What message is that?

Valid, point.  I think @Nothalogh has a great Idea (I do know it does not actually host any thing, I said it wrong).  But doing so in a way that does not cause issues as you lay out here is a challenge as well.    The real problem is KerbalStuff was a one Pony show, that Squad could never use, due to serious risk factors.  SpaceDock may one day be good enough, hard to say this early in the game, but as it is right now Squad can not use it.  As for Curse, a small part of the user and mod makers like it, another, larger part, are ambivalent towards Curse versus others sites, and a very large Number ~50% dislike Curse.  SquadKAN is only an idea that may never go anywhere.

SO that leaves us with a problem with lots of people clamoring for one solution or another.  Only Squad can solve this but I rather think they are immobilized, so they will probably just stick with Curse for better or worse.

[antiwesley]

I very rarely post, though I've been playing KSP since the early .2x era. I'm not a modder, nor do I have massive amounts of knowledge of the intricacies of powered flight/spaceflight.

 

I'm a consumer. I just like to mess around in sandbox mode. 

I stopped using Curse and moved to KerbalStuff because of the constant nagging of "Pay to get a FASTER download" attitude. 

KerbalStuff was easy to use, navigate and very handy for my needs. 

Curse? Curse is a clusterfart in one big mess. If you don't know what you're looking for, Curse is NOT easy to browse or navigate. 

So I stopped using it. 

Having read both sides of the issue here, I think that Squad has really dropped the ball here. Here was somebody that was promoting the brand, not asking

for money, and preaching the gospel of KSP. But like a corporate mentality, it seemed to be "It's our platform" is the only solution. While the Devs have said different, I've been in a corporate situation where the tools we used that got the job done with little or no fuss were constantly being replaced by the corporate bigwigs who never had to deal with the usability factor. They just believed what the yes-men and the salespeople told them. We would get new software in, and we'd purposefully try to break it. More often than not, it broke. 

Curse, from a hobbyist standpoint, has always been broken, and should have been retired not long after it was put up. Squad has failed me for the first time. One of the communities greatest assets has been left to rot because of that corporate mentality. Say what you want, but in-between the lines, it's "We like Curse, so it's here to stay." Way to listen to your userbase.  

[nanobot]

I also do not use Curse, but I suppose Squad acts reasonable for a company, and that many people here oversimplify things. They cannot officially rely on a one-man-driven platform which could go offline whenever one guy wants to (like now). Even by recommending it officially there might be some legal pitfalls, I guess?

Curse on the other hand has in some form guaranteed things like bandwidth and server uptime ... I mean by a real contract and stuff. It is one worry less for Squad and helps in concentrating on the game itself.

It could be worse, like outsourced forums (or none at all).

[Kerbart]

5 hours ago, antiwesley said:

I stopped using Curse and moved to KerbalStuff because of the constant nagging of "Pay to get a FASTER download" attitude. 

A screenshot would be helpful. I have yet to see an ad or “pay to get a faster download” popup on Curseforge. I can see that people don't like it for it’s past, but claiming that Curseforge is nagging with “pay for a faster download”—I can say the same about KerbalStuff of SpaceDock, and it would be just as much true.

[Green Baron]

Hmm, but they do rely on one-man-show modders to enforce the team (no offence, good idea).

From what i read further up Squad has decided not to support Kerbalstuff and urged the operator to change the name. The operator decided to cut the service down. They could have decided otherwise, offer an agreement, that would have been no legal problem at all. We can't do anything about it. Maybe the Kerblstuff sequel offers the same service in the future, that would be nice, we'll see.

To Squad in all friendlyness: pls. keep in mind that, once players have been to the major bodies, it's the mod's that keep the game interesting. The base game becomes boring after some time, yet another maneuver-node, another docking-thing, another landing on a grey surface doesn't challenge the mind for years.

Furthermore, KSP is still somewhat of an indie game and can be played offline without the inteference of any data collection machines and simply be installed in the home directory. Some people playing it might feel like being offended by being urged to use a specific source for the data they install on their systems (i do).

Depending on your future plans, besides travelling around the world on fairs or visiting the white house, loosing acceptance among the modders might be a not-that-good idea in the long run. But i think we all know that, don't we ?

Peace

k

[linuxgurugamer]

5 hours ago, antiwesley said:

I very rarely post, though I've been playing KSP since the early .2x era. I'm not a modder, nor do I have massive amounts of knowledge of the intricacies of powered flight/spaceflight.

 

I'm a consumer. I just like to mess around in sandbox mode. 

I stopped using Curse and moved to KerbalStuff because of the constant nagging of "Pay to get a FASTER download" attitude. 

KerbalStuff was easy to use, navigate and very handy for my needs. 

Curse? Curse is a clusterfart in one big mess. If you don't know what you're looking for, Curse is NOT easy to browse or navigate. 

So I stopped using it. 

Having read both sides of the issue here, I think that Squad has really dropped the ball here. Here was somebody that was promoting the brand, not asking

for money, and preaching the gospel of KSP. But like a corporate mentality, it seemed to be "It's our platform" is the only solution. While the Devs have said different, I've been in a corporate situation where the tools we used that got the job done with little or no fuss were constantly being replaced by the corporate bigwigs who never had to deal with the usability factor. They just believed what the yes-men and the salespeople told them. We would get new software in, and we'd purposefully try to break it. More often than not, it broke. 

Curse, from a hobbyist standpoint, has always been broken, and should have been retired not long after it was put up. Squad has failed me for the first time. One of the communities greatest assets has been left to rot because of that corporate mentality. Say what you want, but in-between the lines, it's "We like Curse, so it's here to stay." Way to listen to your userbase.  

Please remember that when Squad made their LEGAL agreement with Curse, Kerbalstuff wasn't around.  Squad had a legal agreement with Curse, it's not easy to get out of these things.  So they did what they could.  They had nothing to do with Kerbalstuff, and after an initial inquiry at the beginning about the name, they left it alone.  They may not have been allowed by the agreement to promote an alternative.

The Kerbalstuff owner never asked for money from anyone or anywhere.  He mentioned the cost as merely a factor, but essentially, he got fed up and burned out

[Red Iron Crown]

56 minutes ago, kemde said:

Hmm, but they do rely on one-man-show modders to enforce the team (no offence, good idea).

From what i read further up Squad has decided not to support Kerbalstuff and urged the operator to change the name. The operator decided to cut the service down. They could have decided otherwise, offer an agreement, that would have been no legal problem at all. We can't do anything about it. Maybe the Kerblstuff sequel offers the same service in the future, that would be nice, we'll see.

That's a total mischaracterization. The discussion of the name happened when KerbalStuff started, and they *did* reach an agreement about the name's use. This is *not* what prompted the site operator to shut KerbalStuff down.

56 minutes ago, kemde said:

To Squad in all friendlyness: pls. keep in mind that, once players have been to the major bodies, it's the mod's that keep the game interesting. The base game becomes boring after some time, yet another maneuver-node, another docking-thing, another landing on a grey surface doesn't challenge the mind for years.

Which is why they offer an official mod host, and KSP runs with mods from *any* host.

56 minutes ago, kemde said:

Furthermore, KSP is still somewhat of an indie game and can be played offline without the inteference of any data collection machines and simply be installed in the home directory. Some people playing it might feel like being offended by being urged to use a specific source for the data they install on their systems (i do).

This is just unfounded nonsense. Curse doesn't collect data (any more than any website does), and Squad doesn't urge anyone to use a specific host. They set up free professional level hosting for people to use if they want, but there's no penalty for using other hosts (other than the inherent penalties in using community sourced hosting).

[Alshain]

Wow, I hadn't heard it was shutting down.  I understand but it is unfortunate we don't have a good place to host mods anymore.  Hopefully this SpaceDock can fill the void.

[Green Baron]

1 hour ago, Red Iron Crown said:

This is just unfounded nonsense. Curse doesn't collect data (any more than any website does), and Squad doesn't urge anyone to use a specific host. They set up free professional level hosting for people to use if they want, but there's no penalty for using other hosts (other than the inherent penalties in using community sourced hosting).

What's that collect points for vouchers/rebates on amazon, ebay and paypal ?

Inform yourself before being unfriendly !

[Red Iron Crown]

Just now, kemde said:

What's that collect points for vouchers/rebates on amazon, ebay and paypal ?

That's Curse sharing ad revenue with modders. Any host could set up such an arrangement if they like (and in fact this was considered for KerbalStuff at one point).

Just now, kemde said:

Inform yourself before being unfriendly !

I might ask you to do the same.  

[Alshain]

12 minutes ago, kemde said:

What's that collect points for vouchers/rebates on amazon, ebay and paypal ?

Inform yourself before being unfriendly !

Mod developers get rewarded for the number of downloads of their mod by way of points which transition into gift cards at the afore mentioned services.  It keeps a counter of how many times a file is downloaded and most websites offering downloads do that.  It appears you are a bit uninformed.

The only problem with Curse is it's layout.  Bukkit (may she rest in peace) was on Curse and it was an excellent distribution system, but that didn't seem to translate over to Kerbal Curse.  Kerbal Curse is simply annoying to use, it's simply bad ergonomic design.

 

Edit: I mean BukkitDev, sorry. (I'm specifically talking about the mod developer tools for creating pages that show off their mods and such)

Edited February 20, 2016 by Alshain

[Nothalogh]

Let me put it this way, Curse is more objectionable than Mediafire, and that just makes the whole thing seem exceedingly disingenuous on Squad's part.

Squad would be far better off to run an official CKAN, than have an official mod site. 

[Red Iron Crown]

1 minute ago, Nothalogh said:

Let me put it this way, Curse is more objectionable than Mediafire, and that just makes the whole thing seem exceedingly disingenuous on Squad's part.

Patently false. Curse does not serve pornographic ads like Mediafire does.

[mcirish3]

3 hours ago, Kerbart said:

A screenshot would be helpful. I have yet to see an ad or “pay to get a faster download” popup on Curseforge. I can see that people don't like it for it’s past, but claiming that Curseforge is nagging with “pay for a faster download”—I can say the same about KerbalStuff of SpaceDock, and it would be just as much true.

I am going to go ahead and say the reason this still comes up is that Curse is hard to navigate and people accidentally stumble into parts of the site not covered under Squads contract.  It may be possible for a mod maker to post their mod incorrectly as well and have it end up in the non-covered part of the curse site (not speaking from experience).  Also the site has a history that leaves an unpleasant taste in user's mouth it is true even if it is not the case for KSP mods.  As far as I am concerned the reason I don't like it is mostly usability and aesthetics, in other words I find it ugly and hard to navigate.  Not going to argue reliability it is reliable as I have said before, it is just that a significant portion of the community doesn't think that is sufficient.

Edited February 20, 2016 by mcirish3

[mcirish3]

Since Every one keeps talking about SpaceDocks as if it were not operational.  It currently has 179 mods and 875 users.

http://www.spacedock.info/
 

Edited February 20, 2016 by mcirish3

[sal_vager]

Ckan, official or not, needs somewhere to get mods from, ckan doesn't have a repository of addons and has relied on KerbalStuff for the majority, can and does provide mods from elsewhere.