WW2 BAD-T 2 - BDA AI Dogfight Tournament [SEMIFINALS]

[Doke]

10 hours ago, tetryds said:

 

@Doke Yes, it is, and it's known as an open cockpit.
The rules are clear about the Kerbal being safe, and they should probably at least pretend to have some visibility. A fake solar panel "glass" would be fine for example.

Sorry, my previous post wasn't clear. I meant more along the lines of visibility, i.e. your solar panel example. How do you feel about e.g. a blue nosecone for a windscreen, or is that pushing it?

6 hours ago, tetryds said:

@SuicidalInsanity Yes, that is the case, you can use 1.25m rocket fuel tanks, that rule is mainly to prevent parts such as rocket engines, fairings, heatshields, 2.5m fuel tanks, etc.

What's the verdict on service bays?

Sorry for all the questions, but I want to make sure I don't do something illegal. When I'm building, I become a little obsessed with reducing weight and drag.

[tetryds]

@Doke Don't worry about the visuals, I just don't want someone encapsulating the poor kerbal.
But I don't feel like service bays should be allowed, a cargo bay would be fine but a service bay is not that straightforward.
Don't worry about this kind of stuff too much, as long as you are not abusing you will not have problems.
It would be a hell to list every allowed part, both for me and for you, as long as "this shouldn't be allowed" does not cross your mind, you are almost certainly fine.

[DoctorDavinci]

@tetryds - I was wondering if you will allow us to use our own flags on our plane during the competition

The CANUKWorks DF-43 Bad Company is almost finished testing

Edited February 23, 2016 by DoctorDavinci

[tetryds]

@DoctorDavinci Sorry I cannot allow that, I would have to manually install every flag and switch them to fit the players airplane and stuff.
I will just use the standard Kerbal Space Program flag.

By the way, I have decided I am relying on the Map view weight measurement, it has two digits of precision and that is enough for me.
I would use KER but then it would force everybody near the weight limits to use it, so I will not do that.

 

Edit: @Pds314 Think about it, would you ride an airplane where the kerbal is sitting?
If the answer is yes it's ok.
That is a very subjective rule just to prevent people from placing the kerbal upside down under the tip of a wing.

[DoctorDavinci]

I have found that the map view weight stats add 0.03 tons to what is used to calculate weight while in the VAB ... Essentially I can make my plane weigh 6.02 tons in the map view but this will make my plane weigh 5.9 tons in the VAB

I fiddled with it and found that if I can get my craft to 6.05 tons in the map view it always end up being 6.0 tons in the VAB (this is how I came up with the 0.03 ton difference)

 

Edited February 23, 2016 by DoctorDavinci

[tetryds]

The map view one is the official one though.

[Pds314]

19 minutes ago, tetryds said:

The map view one is the official one though.

I'm gonna have to adjust the mass of several wings then.

In other news, I think I'll remake the plane that had the questionable cockpit so it's no longer open. I just beat 500.0 mph in level flight with a widshed and an enclosed cockpit made of (very thin) P-wings, despite having 2x 40mm Vickers onboard!

I wonder, would sweeping the wings allow higher speeds?

Edited February 23, 2016 by Pds314

[tetryds]

@Pds314 2x Vickers S???

That is exactly the kind of thing that I make this tournament for.

If you sweep your wings you decrease your transonic wave drag area, which increases your top speed due to transonic effects, that starts to matter around Mach 0.7, depending on the design.

But you should get lower drag at lower speeds too, just not as noticeable.

But have you checked how it performs during turnfighting? The airplanes tend to be constantly turning during battles and almost never reach their top speeds.

[DoctorDavinci]

So I have finalized the overall balance of my heavy fighter ... There's a few minor tweaks to the AI and control surfaces that I want to test as well as testing another weapons load out 

She'll be ready in probably a day or so.

Stats are as follows:

Spoiler

CANUKWorks> DF-43 Bad Company

Class: Heavy Fighter
Parts: 45

Weight: Dry- 6.04t     Loaded- 6.93t
Height: 4.7m
Width: 9.9m
Length: 11m

Points: V1- 145    V2- 145.48

All stock except for engines, weapons and AI pilot

Edited February 23, 2016 by DoctorDavinci

[Combatsmithen]

Im having trouble building a fighter with FAR that doesn't just flip out, does anyone have a tutorial on how to build with FAR? Either I can't maneuver my plane at all or it just flips out and crashes. I'm a master with stock aerodynamics though.

[Temeter]

On 22.2.2016 at 5:28 AM, tetryds said:

No jets.

Edit: hmm, sorry for being rough, it's just that this competition is plain about piston monoplanes, trying to deviate from that breaks balance very badly.

Unfortunatelly I cannot host two tournaments, so let's do our best with what we have

Nah, I think the idea only ever came up because the juno is kinda styled/named after the jumo 004, which was ofc the first serially produced turbojet and in use during the latter years of WW2.

[Pds314]

One of my fighter candidates. Canopy version. There's also an open-cockpit version. 


BTW, if you're going to ask what something is, it's a procedural wing. Literally every structural element, fuel tank, or decorative piece is a wing.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Pds314

[KamikazeF0X]

On 22/2/2016 at 5:28 AM, tetryds said:

No jets.

Edit: hmm, sorry for being rough, it's just that this competition is plain about piston monoplanes, trying to deviate from that breaks balance very badly.

Unfortunatelly I cannot host two tournaments, so let's do our best with what we have

Maybe the next tournament will have the Juno and the Argus As 014 (Pagan Industries mod)

[Pds314]

8 hours ago, tetryds said:

@Pds314 2x Vickers S???

But have you checked how it performs during turnfighting? The airplanes tend to be constantly turning during battles and almost never reach their top speeds.

It depends on the AI settings. That particular flying monstrosity is basically a sailplane with a Widshed. It pretty much CAN'T get an L/D of less than 10 from high AOA.

So below a certain level of aggression, it will accelerate and stop doing so much turnfighting as darting back and forth at 450 mph trying to vaporize planes with the 2 40 mm guns. It managed to vaporize the dummy in one hit. Nothing left but like 3 wing parts.

Also working on AI settings for the plane I posted that cause it to dive at the enemy planes at 240+ m/s. Since it cannot be bested in dry TWR, it can out-climb anything.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Pds314

[tetryds]

@Combatsmithen

No, there are absolutely no good FAR tutorials out there (there are good ssto guides but none regarding improving flight performance, etc.), that is why I am resuming my work on mine, and I hope it will help a lot of people.

Today I will also start filling the second post of this topic with tips, both strategic and aerodynamic.

So, start experimenting around or just wait a bit.

[Pds314]

The super-fast widshed-powered sailplane of explody doom... if it can land a hit.

[Doke]

@Pds314

That's a nice aspect ratio you have there. Also an impressive fuselage.

 

14 hours ago, Combatsmithen said:

Im having trouble building a fighter with FAR that doesn't just flip out, does anyone have a tutorial on how to build with FAR? Either I can't maneuver my plane at all or it just flips out and crashes. I'm a master with stock aerodynamics though.

Do you have an analogue controller lying around? I find its much easier to test FAR designs with a gamepad, because you can make much gentler motions and get a feel for where your plane's limits are. Then you just need to adjust control authority to the 'safe' zone. Without a pad or joystick, it may just require trial and error (though I believe there is an analogue mouse mod). Bear in mind also that the AI will sometimes find ways to stall planes you thought unstallable, so it can pay to err on the side of caution when setting pitch authority.

Regarding design itself, there's a lot that can go wrong. I'm sure others here understand these things better than I do, but I'd say the first thing to do is check the FAR statistics and make sure nothing is red. Some of the stats are pretty arcane, but Pitch stability is especially important and mostly to do with the old CoM/CoL stuff that I'm sure you're familiar with. Another common problem is lack of yaw stability, which is fixed by making vertical stabilisers bigger and/or further back.

 

In other news, here's Billy-Bobnam enjoying some fresh transonic air:

 

Edited February 24, 2016 by Doke

[tetryds]

@Pds314 That looks neat!
How is the part count, by the way? I am curious because most crafts with details like that tend to skyrocket on part count, I wonder how you managed to keep it under 60.

[Pds314]

27 minutes ago, tetryds said:

@Pds314 That looks neat!
How is the part count, by the way? I am curious because most crafts with details like that tend to skyrocket on part count, I wonder how you managed to keep it under 60.

I think that one is like ~40. Working on these craft I've learned that procedural wings are the solution to everything.

Checked. 43 parts as outfitted.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Pds314

[KamikazeF0X]

I love making planes with those mods !
This competition is going to be awsome ! ^^
 

Spoiler

 

 

Edited February 23, 2016 by tetryds
Fixed images for you, always use the link with .png/.jpg at the end

[MarvinCZ]

@tetryds About B9 procedural wings, it probably won't matter for the tournament. From the mod thread:

"A few bug fixes (mainly, wings not initialising correctly on vessels that aren't the primary vessel coming into loaded range), probably not stuff everyone will see (although, may be more of a concern for BDA)."

[BahamutoD]

39 minutes ago, MarvinCZ said:

@tetryds About B9 procedural wings, it probably won't matter for the tournament. From the mod thread:

"A few bug fixes (mainly, wings not initialising correctly on vessels that aren't the primary vessel coming into loaded range), probably not stuff everyone will see (although, may be more of a concern for BDA)."

Yes, I noticed this bug when doing an attack on a ship built from B9 wings (flew in from out of loading range), but since none of the planes in the tourney will be unloaded at start, it will be okay.

[tetryds]

Yes, I have seen some bugs like those, but they don't show up when setting up the airplanes and stuff, so that is fine, we can continue using B9 Pwings 0.40.

To everybody, what about the weapons? Which setups did you consider and what do you think is going to work the best?

[Orenstix]

2 hours ago, tetryds said:

Yes, I have seen some bugs like those, but they don't show up when setting up the airplanes and stuff, so that is fine, we can continue using B9 Pwings 0.40.

To everybody, what about the weapons? Which setups did you consider and what do you think is going to work the best?

Since i had 63 points left, i took 3 20mm cannons, one in the fuselage and two in the wings. Close enough to do some serious damage if a volley hits, but not so much that the ai has to be super accurate.

[Doke]

3 hours ago, tetryds said:

To everybody, what about the weapons? Which setups did you consider and what do you think is going to work the best?

I was toying with the idea of using a pair of 23mm cannons, but your Kerbals need pretty good marksmanship for it to worthwhile. I'm still experimenting, but I think I'll go with 2-4 guns in the 12.7-20mm range. Enough oomph to bring an enemy down with one good burst, but without adding excessive weight or points cost. I'm also thinking that ballistics and rate of fire are really important.