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[1.12.X] Kerbal Planetary Base Systems v1.6.15 [28. April 2022]


Nils277

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3 hours ago, Nils277 said:

PS. what bigger issues are you talking about? 

Just the bugs folks mentioned earlier (game crashing, something with the drill config, etc). The filter issue is rather insignificant compared to that.

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55 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

Just the bugs folks mentioned earlier (game crashing, something with the drill config, etc). The filter issue is rather insignificant compared to that.

The drill is already fixed :wink:. The crash is most probably caused by using the wrong version. I don't see it that critical until i have a log that shows some other problem 

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Experimented with mod a bit (TAC LS variant).

Found a couple of typos in ru.cfg and a bug. https://github.com/Nils277/KerbalPlanetaryBaseSystems/pull/48

Also, found it very weird to dump human kerbal waste directly to the greenhouses. BIOS-3 (USSR, 1972—1973, the most successful enclosed biome experiment ever) never used that as it would kill the plants. Part of waste (mineralized) was processed in algae (chlorella) tanks, while remaining was... well, wasted. Too toxic substance, you know. 

Suggestion:

  1. Remove Waste from Greenhouse INPUT_RESOURCE and increase it's demand for Fertilizer to compensate.
  2. Increase Algae Farm demand for Ore (concidering most of Waste used will be jettisoned rather then directly processed).
  3. Optionally add a part to make mineral Fertilizer from Ore alone. Real hydroponics and aeroponics tend to not use organic fertilizers - just an aqueous solution of minerals.

Aside of realism this will also open way for extensive space farming, not tied to waste "production".

Edited by Dr. Jet
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16 hours ago, Dr. Jet said:

Experimented with mod a bit (TAC LS variant).

Found a couple of typos in ru.cfg and a bug. https://github.com/Nils277/KerbalPlanetaryBaseSystems/pull/48

Also, found it very weird to dump human kerbal waste directly to the greenhouses. BIOS-3 (USSR, 1972—1973, the most successful enclosed biome experiment ever) never used that as it would kill the plants. Part of waste (mineralized) was processed in algae (chlorella) tanks, while remaining was... well, wasted. Too toxic substance, you know. 

Suggestion:

  1. Remove Waste from Greenhouse INPUT_RESOURCE and increase it's demand for Fertilizer to compensate.
  2. Increase Algae Farm demand for Ore (concidering most of Waste used will be jettisoned rather then directly processed).
  3. Optionally add a part to make mineral Fertilizer from Ore alone. Real hydroponics and aeroponics tend to not use organic fertilizers - just an aqueous solution of minerals.

Aside of realism this will also open way for extensive space farming, not tied to waste "production".

Thanks for the pull request. Will add the changes to the next update.

I'm open to the proposed changes for TAC-LS.
What do the others think? Should i change the Greenhouse and the Algae-Farm in the way @Dr. Jet proposed?

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Speaking about fertilizer...

I made some calculations and figured out that an average vegetable contain 3.9% minerals (by mass). It's actually the mineral fertilizer amount needed for very closed aerooponic loop. Ineadible vegetable plant parts contain minerals too, of course, but let's pretend we burn everything we can't eat, dissolve minerals from the cinder and put em back to the system. So at least 3.9% of the food mass extracted from greenhouse should be fed in as mineral fertilizer. Concidering we are growing something other than beans or peas, this percent shoud be a bit higher (nitrogen also needed). Something around 4.5% seem plausible. But that percent does not concider that minerals are not separate ions but rather are bound chemicals. Percent may be significantly higher.

How much of that is recycled waste? 

Human waste is mostly water and organics. It contains only about 2% of useful minerals and 1,5% nitrogen (in bound form). It can be 2.5-3% nitrogen, concidering TAC LS actually dumps nitrogen rich brine from water filter to generic Waste. Nitrates are generally around 5 times heavier than actual nitrogen they contain. 12.5-15% by mass is nitrates. Minerals are trickier as huge part of them is already bound as... nitrates. Let's say, assuming 100% recycle efficiency (which is obviously NOT an algae tank), 14-16%  of Waste input is potential hydroponic/aeroponic Fertilizer. Remaining 84-86% can be pyrolised or just dumped.

 

Edited by Dr. Jet
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@Dr. Jet So this would mean that the remaining mass percent for the fertilizer would have to come from the Minerals extracted from the Ore. Lets assume that the Ore is rather soil like. Do you know how much percent of the mass of the soil is exploitable minerals for plants? 

Another thing to consider is that plant also need carbon to grow and are mostly getting it from the atmosphere. How much of the mass of a plant is carbon extracted from the atmosphere? This might also have to be considered for the conversion.

Edit: Found this on reddit:

Quote

Sorry, I misinterpreted what you were looking for. Below is the typical dry mass composition by percent:

  • Hydrogen - 6
  • Carbon - 45
  • Oxygen - 45
  • Nitrogen - 1.5
  • Potassium - 1.0
  • Calcium - 0.5
  • Magnesium - 0.2
  • Phosphorous - 0.2
  • Sulfur - 0.1
  • Trace elements: Chlorine, Iron, Boron, Manganese, Zinc, Copper, Molybdenum

The carbon is sourced from CO2 in the air, as I stated above. The oxygen in sugars also comes from the CO2. All else is derived from non-CO2 sources. I cannot tell you how much of the plant oxygen mass is not derived from CO2, but my assumption is that the CO2 uptake in the Calvin Cycle accounts for most of plant oxygen mass.

also

Quote

Seems to become quite complicated. I think you suggestion mentioned earlier sounds sane and allows to change the values without breaking everyones base that uses TAC-LS
Rebalancing the needed COfor the mass compensation etc might become a bit too much :wink: 

Edited by Nils277
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50 minutes ago, Nils277 said:

 So this would mean that the remaining mass percent for the fertilizer would have to come from the Minerals extracted from the Ore. Lets assume that the Ore is rather soil like. Do you know how much percent of the mass of the soil is exploitable minerals for plants?

It's actually very unlikely that Ore would be soil like - soil is primarily decomposed plants and animals, not rock.  Only a very few organisms (many not exactly plants in the first place, or at least not *only* plants) can live on bare rock.  Ore, in this context, is likely whatever rock formation contains a high percentage of the minerals needed - which may well be *higher* than most soil.

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1 hour ago, Nils277 said:

@Dr. Jet Lets assume that the Ore is rather soil like. Do you know how much percent of the mass of the soil is exploitable minerals for plants? 

Well, the most well studied extraterrestrial "soil" is moon regolith. Percentage below.

Element "Sea" regolith "Land" regolith Separate basins regolith
Ca 7,9 10,7 7,7
Mg 5,8 4,6 6,1
Fe 13,2 4,9 3,7
Al 6,8 13,3 9,8
Ti 3,1 0 0
Si 20,4 21,0 21,8
O 41,3 44,6 43,3
S 0,1 0,072 0,076
K 0,1 0,073 0,24
Na 0,3 0,48 0,38

Seems very low on potassium which we need a lot... Also ZERO nitrogen that is gross and calls for Waste recycling.

And a martian regolith table. Couldn't copy it - re-typed manually from the book.

Element Meridian plateau Gusev crater
Si 21.7 21.4
Fe 13.7 14.6
S 5.8 ? no data
Mg 4.38 6.23
Al 3.98 5.69
Ca 4.53 5.62
Na 1.06 1.91

Potassium (K) is below 1% everywhere on  Mars and varies from 0.2% to 0.6%. On the other hand we can find 2-8% of permafrost water! 

 

Edited by Dr. Jet
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Wait you have a book about the elements in the regolith of other planets?

Last thing i can recall about the regolith from mars is that it contained high amounts of either an element or molecule that was highly toxic to most of lifeforms from earth...It was either a heavy metal or some toxic substance that is a byproduct from the chemical industry on earth...

Edited by Nils277
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14 minutes ago, Nils277 said:

Wait you have a book about the elements in the regolith of other planets?

Last thing i can recall about the regolith from mars is that it contained high amounts of either an element or molecule that was highly toxic to most of lifeforms from earth...It was either a heavy metal or some toxic substance that is a byproduct from the chemical industry on earth...

Just Mars. http://intranet.geokhi.ru/Lists/List1/Attachments/6542/2015_Demidov_Bas_Kuzmin_Mars_soil_AV.pdf?Mobile=1 It's in russian though.

Moon regolith copied from russian Wiki. No data in english one, which is strange.

Toxic thing could be some sulphurous molecular entity. There is pretty much sulphur.

Edited by Dr. Jet
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13 minutes ago, Nils277 said:

Last thing i can recall about the regolith from mars is that it contained high amounts of either an element or molecule that was highly toxic to most of lifeforms from earth...It was either a heavy metal or some toxic substance that is a byproduct from the chemical industry on earth...

I believe you're thinking of perchlorates: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perchlorate#On_Mars

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37 minutes ago, Aelfhe1m said:

I believe you're thinking of perchlorates: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perchlorate#On_Mars

Wait a minute... It's a nitrogenous molecular entity! To the hell with posion! We need it for greenhouses! (Preliminary pyrolised of course.) :cool:

Edited by Dr. Jet
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BTW, speaking of Ore processing... The most realistic thing for that seems to be Potassium Fluoride cycling reactor. 

In game terms this will be:

Input Output
Ore Oxygen (LOx)
EC Metall (construction material)
  Minerals (Fertilizer minus Nitrogen)
 

Other stuff (Rare metals, Silicon, etc.) and tons of HEAT

And yes, no LF. Kerosene requires carbon and hydrogen which are absent in ore.

Edited by Dr. Jet
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Update to 1.5.7

Changelog:

Quote

Localization:

  • Fixed wrong tag for water drill (Thanks to @Dr. Jet)

New Parts:

  • Added KIS storages in Base profile (2x)

Bug Fixes:

  • Fixed missing function category in 1.3.1
  • Added missing particle texture for the drill
  • Container Greenhouse now stores waste instead of waste water (Thanks to @Dr. Jet)

Enhancements:

  • Added mechanic to transfer Enriched Uranium and Depleted Fuel

Mod Support:

  • Adapted greenhouses and algae farm for TAC-LS to be more realistic and reduce need for waste

Download:

oYvtZpW.png UVVt0OP.png lMOxt2k.png

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1 hour ago, DStaal said:

Just to make clear: How does your nuclear fuels transfer mechanic work?  (There are some differences between MKS and NFE on that already.)

For the transfer, i tried to make the mechanics quite similar to the one of NFE.

This means, you have to right click on the part you want to transfer fuel from and select either "transfer enriched uranium" or "transfer depleted fuel"
When this is clicked, the part of the vessel the fuel will be transfered to will be highlighted in blue. You can switch between the possible parts with "next target" or "prev. target" in the right click menu. When the part you want to transfer fuel to is selected you can click on "start transfer". When you either click "stop transfer" or close the right click menu, then the transfer will be stopped.

The transfer is also limited at certain points: Like in NFE you need a level 1 engineer on board to transfer the enriched uranium and a level 3 engineer on board to transfer depleted fuel. Also the part that wants to transfer fuel must not have an active converter running to be allowed to transfer fuel.
So all in all it is pretty similar to the mechanics of NFE. Except that NFE also consideres the heat of the part.

I don't know how it is done in MKS though....my guess would be that is has to be done in EVA with a kerbal that is an engineer, right?

Edited by Nils277
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37 minutes ago, Nils277 said:

I don't know how it is done in MKS though....my guess would be that is has to be done in EVA with a kerbal that is an engineer, right?

Pretty much.  MKS makes it part of it's 'maintenance' mechanic - which can be done by an engineer (or correct MKS sub-class) on EVA or by an engineer (or subclass...) in a workshop, of which there are several available.  The transfer can occur between ships, as long as they are within a certain distance of each other.  (200m by default IIRC, and I think this can be extended some.  But it's not the same as the logistics extensions.)  You can transfer to/from active converters, and there's no level limits that I'm aware of.

Yours (and NFE's) sound fine.  I just wanted to know (and have it documented) what the actual procedure was, as I'm sure it'll come up.  :wink:

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1 minute ago, DStaal said:

Pretty much.  MKS makes it part of it's 'maintenance' mechanic - which can be done by an engineer (or correct MKS sub-class) on EVA or by an engineer (or subclass...) in a workshop, of which there are several available.  The transfer can occur between ships, as long as they are within a certain distance of each other.  (200m by default IIRC, and I think this can be extended some.  But it's not the same as the logistics extensions.)  You can transfer to/from active converters, and there's no level limits that I'm aware of.

Yours (and NFE's) sound fine.  I just wanted to know (and have it documented) what the actual procedure was, as I'm sure it'll come up.  :wink:

Yeah...thinking of it i probably should have added a new page for KSPedia to explain how the mechanic works :wink: 

Edited by Nils277
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Hello, maybe I'm missing something obvious, but how am I supposed to attach the "half-parts" (like K&K Z-3K battery) to other planetary base part ? I'm able to take two such parts and connect them to each other with wasd rotating, but then the resulting thing has no collecting link at all and refuse to connect to anything.

Sorry if I missed some previous answer on that topic, I did a search without result.

(Note : because it's a pain to update all the mods without breaking anything (especially my current game) and because I didn't play in a while, I'm on 1.2 and have the corresponding K&K version. I doubt it matters much. I think there must be some kind of solution I'm missing, because I doubt such a huge issue would have ever been left when the parts were created)

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For FSFuelswitch - does the mass of the part have to match the mass listed in this addon module? I ask as I'm getting an error for 1 part regarding this.

[LOG 17:30:48.951] PartLoader: Compiling Part 'PlanetaryBaseInc/ModSupport/Parts/OSE Workshop/OSE_Resources/KKAOSS_OSEResources'
[ERR 17:30:48.958] Error: FSFuelSwitch Mass Discrepancy detected in part 'KKAOSS.OSEResources'.

Looking in the cfg, part mass = 0.6, while FSfuelSwitch has a property for basePartMass = 0.5

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3 minutes ago, Wyzard said:

Will there be a conflict if someone is using both KPBS and NFE?

There won't be any conflicts. I have added a patch that changes the parts to use the mechanics of NFE if it is installed. So when you have NFE all will work with the NFE mechanics.

6 hours ago, wile1411 said:

For FSFuelswitch - does the mass of the part have to match the mass listed in this addon module? I ask as I'm getting an error for 1 part regarding this.

[LOG 17:30:48.951] PartLoader: Compiling Part 'PlanetaryBaseInc/ModSupport/Parts/OSE Workshop/OSE_Resources/KKAOSS_OSEResources'
[ERR 17:30:48.958] Error: FSFuelSwitch Mass Discrepancy detected in part 'KKAOSS.OSEResources'.

Looking in the cfg, part mass = 0.6, while FSfuelSwitch has a property for basePartMass = 0.5

Hmm, that might be the case. Will have to try that out :wink: 

Edited by Nils277
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