Open hull shape standards

[Autochton]

I've been thinking about some things lately, regarding part mods that include hull parts (as opposed to wing parts etc.) with cross sections that are not circular. The classic examples of such parts would be the stock Mk2 and Mk3 parts, which follow a standard set by Squad. Mk3 and the B9 HL hull parts fit each other - as I understand it this was a deliberate choice. Well, why not make this choice some more? The ability to add to parts produced by others makes sense, and can only improve the quality and flexibility of parts mods.

As such, I propose setting down a standards board made up of an appropriate set of volunteers, who will determine which hull shapes to standardize, and what the precise standard should be for each. I myself lean towards being quite liberal about permitting new standard shapes - simply because I like creativity and new ideas - so in the end it may simply come down to collecting and publishing these shape descriptions in an appropriate format. But the main thrust is simply to have definitions for hull shapes that are stable, accessible and usable, permitting modders to create compatibility with others more easily.

Some thoughts on what shapes it would make sense to include, sorted by the mod pack where I've seen them (which may not be the originator, please correct me in this case):

• B9 Aerospace (bac9)
  • S2
  • S2W
  • HX
• Mark IV Spaceplane System (Nertea)
  • Mk4
• OPT SpacePlane Pack (K.Yeon)
  • Type J
  • Type K

Other types will surely come up as well - I know I've seen them, and I know I must have forgotten some also. Really, any hull type part that could be standardized meaningfully is a candidate here. It would provide us with a repository of information on what shapes are used, and prevent insularity among parts mods by making compatibility easier.

So, thoughts?

[Buster Charlie]

I had seen something similar in regards to filters extended, someone drew up icons for all the major bulkheads octogirder,  etc.

[Autochton]

Mulling onwards about this, it might make sense to have models representing a standard cross section of the hull type, in an accessible format. That way, modelers can relatively easily work towards a shape, with a minimum of fuss. In fact I'd argue that such a template might favorably be the authoritative form of a hull shape standard, with a textual or mathematical description being derived from that.

[Rushligh]

you'd have to contact the creators and request permission to use their form factors of course. Their design is part of the open license.

Other than that i BEG you to make more parts in these form factors: or other form factors entirely. i'd love to see an "L" form factor as an expansion to OPT. i love making massive SSTO's with KSPI tech but i can never have a big enough hangar bay with a rear opening door. if you could produce an OPT compatible form factor big enough to fit the average mk2 factor body and some large wings, and even a KAS winch built into it for docking....

I NEED IT

Edited March 21, 2016 by Rushligh
typo

[Autochton]

1 minute ago, Rushligh said:

you'd have to contact the creators and request permission to use their form factors of course. Their design is part of the open license.

Obviously the thought would not be to steal content, but to provide the tools to create compatible parts, so yes, any mods with licensing that would restrict such activity, there would have to be an agreement in place.

[wasml]

I'd say pick some shapes - the most popular / your favorites / what ever - and provide templates for those (with permission of course). That could be really useful.

As far as forming a standards board - not sure that would work. Probably better to provide what your interested in and ask designers of other form factors if they would be willing to contribute their design.

[Rushligh]

i've looked for tools to generate parts, or edit the CFG's. but everything i find is either outdated, gone, or broken.

seems everybody is relying on blender to make their parts. your best option would be to personally contact the makers of the packs and explain that you're looking to make a spinnof of adaptations. if they're willing, they could send you their files and you could mess with them in blender or maya. aside from that there aren't any tools for messing with part form factors.

The problem with making any software for generating parts is the co-ordinates/orientation of the attachment nodes; they're really silly.

[Wolf Baginski]

While I can see the point of having a central list, there is a tool to convert between a Unity .mu and Blender which might be enough to make a start on somebody using the various cross-sections. Yes, you would need permission to distribute a Mod using somebody else's hull shape, and the conversion, as I recall, does include the collision mesh.

Attachment nodes are specified in the part.cfg, and the zero point seems to be the centre of the Mesh, which might be a little tricky for some shapes.

It can all get complicated, but it looks as though fitting to a particular existing cross-section is pretty simple, if you know how to make a model. The virtue of a list would be in documenting who currently controls a shape. 

 

[Rushligh]

also remember, in unity the X axis is up and the Y axis is depth. it's weird, i know.

[Crzyrndm]

Thanks to @Kerbas_ad_astra, this (1, 2, 3) is probably the most complete listing of different cross sections, although he would be the best one to ask about which mods they come from

Edited March 29, 2016 by Crzyrndm

[Autochton]

The above posts are exactly the sort of information that would be useful. Save part makers the effort of digging through forums, github, source files, etc., and instead let them do what they do best: Make parts. :)

So to properly describe a hull shape, seems we'd need a few pieces of information: A blender model (or similar) describing the cross section in a consistent coordinate system (i.e. with the origo in the right spot wrt. node placement), a node placement coordinate set, and a name, plus possibly a human-readable description. Add to this any licensing info (in most cases I don't foresee any trouble here - permissive licenses have become the norm of late), and the original creator, and I think that's what our shape definition would be.

[Kerbas_ad_astra]

14 hours ago, Crzyrndm said:

Thanks to @Kerbas_ad_astra, this (1, 2, 3) is probably the most complete listing of different cross sections, although he would be the best one to ask about which mods they come from

Going down the list of icons (from the second link), there are:

• ERS from @alexustas's Exploration Rover System
• Hextruss from @SpeedyB's Hex Truss parts
• HX from B9
• The flat-bottomed base profile from Planetary Base Systems
• "Mk2 Oversized" doesn't exist, but it's something I've wanted to make: a Mk2 fuselage with the vertical segments extended so it's 2.5m tall instead of 1.5.  It would fill in the gap between Mk2 and Mk3 (especially to allow medium cargo carriers), although the flat-bottomed 2.5m parts kind of fills this niche now.
• Mark 4 by Nertea
• J and K from OPT
• "Octotruss" from Near Future Construction
• "Octo3" is an octagon with a 3.75m corner-to-corner diameter, used by USI Freight Transport Technologies
• "Proc" for procedural parts from various mods
• (Radial) size 00 (0.35 m) from Sounding Rockets
• (Radial) size 1.5 (1.875 m) from HGR and MOLE
• There's a couple of square cross-sections from KashKorp Rovers & Roadsters
• "size25" is the flat-bottomed 2.5m cross-section by @RaginCaucasian.  (A true "Size 25" would be nearly 8 km wide -- hopefully not happening any time soon...)
• (Radial) sizes 4 (5 m) through 9 (30 m), inspired by Behemoth, SpaceY, SpaceY Expanded, and the Sea Dragon.
• "Square4" is the square docking port shape from @allista's Hangar mod.
• The wedge from Universal Storage

[Rushligh]

4 hours ago, Kerbas_ad_astra said:

• "Mk2 Oversized" doesn't exist, but it's something I've wanted to make: a Mk2 fuselage with the vertical segments extended so it's 2.5m tall instead of 1.5.  It would fill in the gap between Mk2 and Mk3 (especially to allow medium cargo carriers), although the flat-bottomed 2.5m parts kind of fills this niche now.
• Mark 4 by Nertea
• J and K from OPT
• "Octotruss" from Near Future Construction

That description of Mk2 oversized is literally the opt J factor. It's redundant. I WOULD like to see a 3.75m based j/mk2 shaped hull though, one with a nice big rear opening door and good mk3/mk2/j compatibility. 

i find that K's bays are to shallow and the form factor can't hold very much. While it's usefull for transporting flat rovers it's not good for very much else.

Mk4's flat bottom make for an aesthetically unpleasant situation when it comes to intakes. And the 1.25 meter adapters also make for awkward designes with lots of part overlaping. It's not bad, its hull shape is very functional for many applications, it's just not my taste. 

NF's Octotruss is relatively self contained; as a truss it doesn't need to fit any other form factors, it's meant to be purely structural.
 

I'd like to see a pack like the mk2 expansion for the J form factor, as it is (in my opinion) the most versatile ssto form factor to date when combined with mk2 hull segments.  

Alternatively someone should make a mod to apply tweakscale to all mk2 parts from squad, suicidal insanity, quiztech, SXT, and Dr.Jed. This would allow a moc of the 'larger mk2' form factors. Using tweakscale also means it increases part connection strengh, making larger craft stronger and able to handle more force (so non KJR users won't have their ships rip appart) .

[Kerbas_ad_astra]

8 minutes ago, Rushligh said:

That description of Mk2 oversized is literally the opt J factor. It's redundant.

No, it's not.  J is 2.5 meters tall and 5 meters wide -- it's like Mk 2 that has been stretched in both dimensions.  Mk 2 Oversized would be taller by extending the vertical segments only, something along the lines of the old Mk 3.  You can see this by looking at the shape itself.

[Rushligh]

17 minutes ago, Kerbas_ad_astra said:

No, it's not.  J is 2.5 meters tall and 5 meters wide -- it's like Mk 2 that has been stretched in both dimensions.  Mk 2 Oversized would be taller by extending the vertical segments only, something along the lines of the old Mk 3.  You can see this by looking at the shape itself.

ohh. okay, i misunderstood that. i agree that would be useful. sort of like an extended belly mk 2.

i've seen a form factor that is basically like 2 mk1 hulls side by side, then covered. this would be extremely useful actually: especially with side opening cargo bays. (basically a miniature k factor)

WE NEED MORE SIDE OPENING CARGO BAYS IN EVERYTHING.

 

[Autochton]

@Kerbas_ad_astra I think the "size25" refers to Mk 2.5, wouldn't it? It's sized between Mk 2 and Mk 3 after all. But that is an excellent list, and definitely a candidate for a 'standard shape set' of sorts.