Camacha Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 That guy seems to have some anger issues. I agree with the message, but the way it is conveyed is bound to cause issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frybert Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 34 minutes ago, Spaceception said: Did you talk to him after the launch? Nah, I was there with my parents and my kids. My kids were cold and my parents wanted to beat traffic so I was out of there pretty quickly. Now I wish I had chatted with him before the launch but I guess there is always next launch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motokid600 Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 (edited) 5 hours ago, Camacha said: That guy seems to have some anger issues. I agree with the message, but the way it is conveyed is bound to cause issues. Anger, kindness... There's no way to convey the messege. I suppose I'd be like that too if the worlds biggest trolls flooded every one of my videos. Question. In that video you get a good shot of the second stage ignition. It happens pretty quickly after staging so doesn't the first stage get blasted? You think it'd get damaged. Edited March 6, 2016 by Motokid600 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motokid600 Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 6 hours ago, Frybert said: HOLY CRAP! I was looking for that guy's video! I was standing like 15 feet away from him! At a certain point I actually gave up my own recording to watch his. I wondered what he had on his head.I'm out of likes for the day, but THANK YOU FOR FINDING THIS! You said the launch was really quiet right? In that video the wind sounded pretty strong. Was the wind blowing at your back by chance? That'd explain the lack of noise from the rocket. In fact if the winds were going any direction except towards you id imagine I'd dampen the sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatastrophicFailure Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 12 minutes ago, Motokid600 said: Anger, kindness... There's no way to convey the messege. I suppose I'd be like that too if the worlds biggest trolls flooded every one of my videos. Question. In that video you get a good shot of the second stage ignition. It happens pretty quickly after staging so doesn't the first stage get blasted? You think it'd get damaged. I think that since the first stage is still controlled, it's actively steered out of the way. Wouldn't take much of a nudge to move it clear of the single plume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frybert Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 7 hours ago, Motokid600 said: You said the launch was really quiet right? In that video the wind sounded pretty strong. Was the wind blowing at your back by chance? That'd explain the lack of noise from the rocket. In fact if the winds were going any direction except towards you id imagine I'd dampen the sound. Yeah, it was pretty windy (thats why I muted my video). That being said, the wind was coming 'on shore' and there was no noise from the rocket whatsoever. When I watched shuttle launches from that same location you could hear it very clearly even in the early morning launches where the wind is blowing the other way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motokid600 Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 4 minutes ago, Frybert said: Yeah, it was pretty windy (thats why I muted my video). That being said, the wind was coming 'on shore' and there was no noise from the rocket whatsoever. When I watched shuttle launches from that same location you could hear it very clearly even in the early morning launches where the wind is blowing the other way. Hm then id imagine the sound should be amplified. Guess the turbulent wind just breaks it up too much. That and the Falcon9 may just be a "quiet" rocket. Most of the shuttle's noise was due to the SRB's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KerbonautInTraining Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 9 hours ago, Motokid600 said: Question. In that video you get a good shot of the second stage ignition. It happens pretty quickly after staging so doesn't the first stage get blasted? You think it'd get damaged. It's nearly a vacuum so the plume expands to many tens of meters before hitting the stage. I'd imagine it's nothing compared to Max-Q or re-entry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sevenperforce Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 I was pointing out to my kids how broadly expanded the first stage's plume is at MECO. Definitely near vacuum. The second stage has a VERY efficiently expanded exhaust plume. The purpose of the nozzle is to convert the heat and pressure into kinetic energy; the exhaust temperature is probably pretty low in comparison to the first stage at ignition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KAL 9000 Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 On March 5, 2016 at 10:00 AM, sevenperforce said: Believe it or not, I haven't actually ever played KSP. This just happens to be the largest and most active group of spaceflight enthusiasts on any form I have found. Wait, what? You have to get it (no pressure). It's the most realistic spaceflight simulator I've ever seen, and you get to blow stuff up! What's not to like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elrond Cupboard Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 2 minutes ago, KAL 9000 said: Wait, what? You have to get it (no pressure). It's the most realistic spaceflight simulator I've ever seen, and you get to blow stuff up! What's not to like? You might like http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/ more of a flight sim, and one is encouraged not to blow stuff up, but well worth the time IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frybert Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 33 minutes ago, Elrond Cupboard said: You might like http://orbit.medphys.ucl.ac.uk/ more of a flight sim, and one is encouraged not to blow stuff up, but well worth the time IMHO. Yep. This is actually where KSP was born. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elrond Cupboard Posted March 6, 2016 Share Posted March 6, 2016 1 minute ago, Frybert said: Yep. This is actually where KSP was born. Indeed, I had temporarily forgotten that, but you are absolutely correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredinno Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 On 3/5/2016 at 1:58 PM, sevenperforce said: Oddly, neither as active nor as interest-diverse. I think that's because it's more nerdy, and it's supposed to be specifically be about spaceflight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgt_flyer Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 (edited) On 6/3/2016 at 2:35 AM, Motokid600 said: This guy takes some of the best amateur footage of the major launches I've seen yet. WARNING: Avoid the comment section. Reds Rhetoric is involved in fighting against conspiracy theorists so his comment section is a war zone. Just avoid it. something interesting from this video was posted on the SpaceX reddit - at around 5:27 on this video, there is what looks like a puff of RCS coming out of one of the fairing's halves. https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/4990yt/rcs_exhaust_from_ses9_fairings_at_520_and_527/ one of the theories given on the reddit post, was that spaceX is experimenting on fairing recovery. one reply point out to two things to give weight to this theory : this diagram, which would point out to an helicopter mid-air recovery of the fairings : http://imgur.com/Otj4QCN,QMXhN9I and this old tweet from Elon Musk : Edited March 7, 2016 by sgt_flyer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredinno Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 58 minutes ago, sgt_flyer said: something interesting from this video was posted on the SpaceX reddit - at around 5:27 on this video, there is what looks like a puff of RCS coming out of one of the fairing's halves. https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/4990yt/rcs_exhaust_from_ses9_fairings_at_520_and_527/ one of the theories given on the reddit post, was that spaceX is experimenting on fairing recovery. one reply point out to two things to give weight to this theory : this diagram, which would point out to an helicopter mid-air recovery of the fairings : http://imgur.com/Otj4QCN,QMXhN9I and this old tweet from Elon Musk : Why would this be done? The fairings are pretty darned cheap. I would recover the 2nd stage engine first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgt_flyer Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 (edited) 45 minutes ago, fredinno said: Why would this be done? The fairings are pretty darned cheap. I would recover the 2nd stage engine first. fairings are built to be solid while being as light as possible - i doubt it's that cheap, even for spaceX. here's some figures that were given in the reddit post for ariane 5 fairings : 112 million US$ for an order of 18 fairings : http://spacenews.com/41132ruag-books-order-for-18-ariane-5-fairings/ so around 6,2M US$ per fairing set. even if spaceX uses techniques with lower costs along the smaller size, when adding reusability systems i sincerely doubt they could go below 1 million per half. Sending an helicopter to retrieve it would kinda make sense (and those fairings are subject to much slower reentry speeds than the upperstage would) - quicker and easier mean to save on price through reusability without a meaningful impact on payload capability) as long as the helicopter flight + reusability costs are below the fairing's price - saved money remains saved money Edited March 7, 2016 by sgt_flyer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredinno Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 9 minutes ago, sgt_flyer said: fairings are built to be solid while being as light as possible - i doubt it's that cheap, even for spaceX. here's some figures that were given in the reddit post for ariane 5 fairings : 112 million US$ for an order of 18 fairings : http://spacenews.com/41132ruag-books-order-for-18-ariane-5-fairings/ so around 6,2M US$ per fairing set. even if spaceX uses techniques with lower costs along the smaller size, when adding reusability systems i sincerely doubt they could go below 1 million per half. Sending an helicopter to retrieve it would kinda make sense (and those fairings are subject to much slower reentry speeds than the upperstage would) - quicker and easier mean to save on price through reusability without a meaningful impact on payload capability) as long as the helicopter flight + reusability costs are below the fairing's price - saved money remains saved money But that's very low in terms of rocket costs.I doubt the performance loss is worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgt_flyer Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 (edited) @fredinno hard to tell without knowing the exact numbers. depending on the added weight to enable fairing recovery and the value of the fairings (at 2million for the set it would still amount to more than 3% of the stated launch costs) still, it doesn't change the fact that there's still something that looks like an rcs puff coming from the fairings visible on the video - if it's indeed rcs, for what end would you need rcs on a fairing other than adjusting it's attitude for reentry - their ballistic trajectory would make them fall in the ocean even without attitude adjustment Edited March 7, 2016 by sgt_flyer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredinno Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 21 minutes ago, sgt_flyer said: @fredinno hard to tell without knowing the exact numbers. depending on the added weight to enable fairing recovery and the value of the fairings (at 2million for the set it would still amount to more than 3% of the stated launch costs) still, it doesn't change the fact that there's still something that looks like an rcs puff coming from the fairings visible on the video - if it's indeed rcs, for what end would you need rcs on a fairing other than adjusting it's attitude for reentry - their ballistic trajectory would make them fall in the ocean even without attitude adjustment The performance loss should be similar to 1st stage recovery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgt_flyer Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 (edited) 42 minutes ago, fredinno said: The performance loss should be similar to 1st stage recovery. errr - 1st stage recovery diminishes payload capacity by 30%... 30% of a 4500kg gto payload would be 1350kg... the Ruag site gives a mass of 2400kg for ariane 5 long fairing... http://www.ruag.com/space/products/launcher-structures-separation-systems/launcher-fairings-structures/ i doubt a recovery system for fairings would amount to such an insane fraction of the fairings weight... as i said, we don't know the exact numbers of recovery system weight, falcon fairing weight, and costs. still, estimating performance loss as similar to first stage recovery is a bit far fetched. (if it was for 2nd stage recovery it would be more realistic.) edit : found a figure of 1,75 tons for falcon 9 fairing. http://spaceflight101.com/spacerockets/falcon-9-v1-1-f9r/ also, a g-12 freight parachute assembly (capable of carrying up to 1 ton of freight) weights only 57kg... for 1950s materials !) http://www.millsmanufacturing.com/products/cargo-parachutes/14-products/45-g-12-cargo-parachute-assembly Edited March 7, 2016 by sgt_flyer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredinno Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 23 minutes ago, sgt_flyer said: errr - 1st stage recovery diminishes payload capacity by 30%... 30% of a 4500kg gto payload would be 1350kg... the Ruag site gives a mass of 2400kg for ariane 5 long fairing... http://www.ruag.com/space/products/launcher-structures-separation-systems/launcher-fairings-structures/ i doubt a recovery system for fairings would amount to such an insane fraction of the fairings weight... as i said, we don't know the exact numbers of recovery system weight, falcon fairing weight, and costs. still, estimating performance loss as similar to first stage recovery is a bit far fetched. (if it was for 2nd stage recovery it would be more realistic.) edit : found a figure of 1,75 tons for falcon 9 fairing. http://spaceflight101.com/spacerockets/falcon-9-v1-1-f9r/ also, a g-12 freight parachute assembly (capable of carrying up to 1 ton of freight) weights only 57kg... for 1950s materials !) http://www.millsmanufacturing.com/products/cargo-parachutes/14-products/45-g-12-cargo-parachute-assembly http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2016/03/spacex-falcon9-ses-9-launch/ I meant that the fairings should have a similar impact per kg as recovering the 1st stage- there is no need for fuel, but need to add shielding, RCS, parafoil, etc, increases it- not to mention the fairing is taken off almost 1 minute after 1st stage separation. There is no reason why it's impossible, but I would rather see a larger diameter F9 to support 2nd stage reuse, and a 3rd stage for high-energy orbits than this right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfds Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 You also have to consider how much of the 112 M$ for the 18 fairings were actual production costs. I guess a large amount was development cost, lowering the expected savings considerably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgt_flyer Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 (edited) 38 minutes ago, cfds said: You also have to consider how much of the 112 M$ for the 18 fairings were actual production costs. I guess a large amount was development cost, lowering the expected savings considerably. well, Ruag makes fairings (and payload adapters etc) since a long time (both for ariane (since 1974 for ariane) and Atlas-V 500) the 112 millions were just for ordering a new batch in 2014 to get supply up to 2019 - still, that's why i proposed a lower figure for SpaceX ones Edited March 7, 2016 by sgt_flyer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredinno Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 2 minutes ago, sgt_flyer said: well, Ruag makes fairings (and payload adapters etc) since a long time (both for ariane (since 1974 for ariane) and Atlas-V 500) the 112 millions were just for ordering a new batch in 2014 to get supply up to 2019 RUAG is not making fairings for F9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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