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On 10.9.2016 at 1:41 PM, Nibb31 said:

A leak would be detected by a pressure differential, volume pumped wouldn't match volume in the tank, etc...

To get a fireball, you would need two leaks. LOX alone doesn't combust.

Yes however this was during filling, even if they try to check if the level in the upper stage match that the pumps output an error of 0.1% would let 64 kg of LOX escape. 
Note that the monitoring is probably far less accurate, main purpose is to make sure the stage is topped before launch, LOX use during launch is better done with monitoring the flow 
Yes it would need something to react with as you say. 
 

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F9 stages total height is 41+14 = 55 m.
On the movie screenshot this is 450 pixel high.

The first movie frame with explosion (when the fireball appears, but yet no smoke cloud) contains a pretty round fireball. Its diameter is about 90 pixels = 55 * 90 / 450 = 11 m.

Volume = 3.14 * 113 / 6 = 700 m3.
Atmopressure ~100 kPa.
Work against air pressure = 700 * 100000 = 70 MJ.
Kerosene combustion value ~ 40 MJ.
I.e. the original explosion is roughly equivalent to a few kilograms of RP-1.

If, say, a few tens of LOx leaked from the upper tank and corroded with cryo, say, some obturator below, then, say, mixed with a few kilograms of RP-1, making an air-fuel cloud between the tanks, exactly where we can observe the flash...

Edited by kerbiloid
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2 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

F9 stages total height is 41+14 = 55 m. 

I thought it was 70m tall. Or maybe your talking about just the first and second stage, without the fairing.

Edited by TheEpicSquared
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We got our sneak peek of the orbital booster, and... wow. I'm just going to paste in the email from Bezos, because I'm still having trouble processing this myself.

Our mascot is the tortoise. We paint one on our vehicles after each successful flight. Our motto is “Gradatim Ferociter” – step by step, ferociously. We believe “slow is smooth and smooth is fast.” In the long run, deliberate and methodical wins the day, and you do things quickest by never skipping steps. This step-by-step approach is a powerful enabler of boldness and a critical ingredient in achieving the audacious. We’re excited to give you a preview of our next step. One we’ve been working on for four years. Meet New Glenn:

 

 new-glenn-large2.jpg
Introducing New Glenn: Reusable, vertical-landing booster, 3.85 million pounds thrust
(A high-resolution version of this image is available at www.blueorigin.com/gallery)

 

Building, flying, landing, and re-flying New Shepard has taught us so much about how to design for practical, operable reusability. And New Glenn incorporates all of those learnings.
 
Named in honor of John Glenn, the first American to orbit Earth, New Glenn is 23 feet in diameter and lifts off with 3.85 million pounds of thrust from seven BE-4 engines. Burning liquefied natural gas and liquid oxygen, these are the same BE-4 engines that will power United Launch Alliance’s new Vulcan rocket.
 
The 2-stage New Glenn is 270 feet tall, and its second stage is powered by a single vacuum-optimized BE-4 engine. The 3-stage New Glenn is 313 feet tall. A single vacuum-optimized BE-3 engine, burning liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen, powers its third stage. The booster and the second stage are identical in both variants.
 
We plan to fly New Glenn for the first time before the end of this decade from historic Launch Complex 36 at Cape Canaveral, Florida. New Glenn is designed to launch commercial satellites and to fly humans into space. The 3-stage variant – with its high specific impulse hydrogen upper stage – is capable of flying demanding beyond-LEO missions.
 
Our vision is millions of people living and working in space, and New Glenn is a very important step. It won’t be the last of course. Up next on our drawing board: New Armstrong. But that’s a story for the future.
 
Gradatim Ferociter!
 
Jeff Bezos
 
P.S. If someone forwarded this email to you and you’d like to subscribe to get these updates yourself, you can do so here.
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19 minutes ago, Kryten said:

We got our sneak peek of the orbital booster, and... wow. I'm just going to paste in the email from Bezos, because I'm still having trouble processing this myself.

 

Are you kidding me? That rocket will be able to lift at least 70 metric tons to LEO. AND IT'LL BE REUSABLE!

If that's New Glenn, what is New Armstrong? New Armstrong's gotta be as big as the BFR...

Will NASA ever buy New Glenn rockets? They seem like they'd be great for deep-space probes.

Edited by _Augustus_
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4 minutes ago, _Augustus_ said:

Are you kidding me? That rocket will be able to lift as much as the SLS Block I and Block IB. AND IT'LL BE REUSABLE!

If that's New Glenn, what is New Armstrong? New Armstrong's gotta be as big as the BFR...

I think it is similar to the Falcon Heavy in payload, but is larger as methane is less dense. Should be better for deep space missions though as kerosene as such a poor ISP.

 

The SLS is looking more and more pointless atm.

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2 minutes ago, Frozen_Heart said:

I think it is similar to the Falcon Heavy in payload, but is larger as methane is less dense. Should be better for deep space missions though as kerosene as such a poor ISP.

 

The SLS is looking more and more pointless atm.

Nah, SLS is still a good idea. While it's not reusable, having the capability to put excess of 100 mT into LEO is great for assembling a Mars mission or launching a manned lander. Altair was going to need an entire Ares V, after all, and a Mars lander will be about the same size as Altair. If you wanted to launch a lander that big with smaller rockets, how exactly would you do it?

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27 minutes ago, Frozen_Heart said:

Anyone else heard about the New Glenn rocket that was just announced? First stage reuse same as SpaceX.

Will be interesting to see how it goes.

Could you give a link please? When I google it some American football team shows up in the results.

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15 minutes ago, _Augustus_ said:

Nah, SLS is still a good idea. While it's not reusable, having the capability to put excess of 100 mT into LEO is great for assembling a Mars mission or launching a manned lander. Altair was going to need an entire Ares V, after all, and a Mars lander will be about the same size as Altair. If you wanted to launch a lander that big with smaller rockets, how exactly would you do it?

SLS doesn't have the launch rate to support assembly this requires multiple launches no more than a few weeks apart. SLS will get a launch every 6 months at best. 

Between new glenn, vulcan/delta, and falcon heavy that would be 3 heavy class launchers by the end of the decade. It would be a great boon to any orbital assembly scheme to distribute the parts between the 3 independent launchers and launch them all near simultaniously.

Edited by passinglurker
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30 minutes ago, Kryten said:

We got our sneak peek of the orbital booster, and... wow. I'm just going to paste in the email from Bezos, because I'm still having trouble processing this myself.

Good grief. That's their idea of slow and methodical and never skipping steps? From New Shepard to that!  :0.0: And then straight to New Armstrong?? Maybe they should go for a New Borman first. :) 

I have to admit - I'll believe it when I see it, in the same way that I'll believe SpaceX's more grandiose plans when I see them flying. But man, do I want to see something the size of a Saturn V first stage coming in to land.

Best of luck Blue Origin!

20 minutes ago, _Augustus_ said:

Nah, SLS is still a good idea. While it's not reusable, having the capability to put excess of 100 mT into LEO is great for assembling a Mars mission or launching a manned lander. Altair was going to need an entire Ares V, after all, and a Mars lander will be about the same size as Altair. If you wanted to launch a lander that big with smaller rockets, how exactly would you do it?

I'd send up the lander and the Earth Departure Stage (EDS) separately. :) Unless I'm misremembering of course, but I thought the plan for Constellation was to launch the capsule and service module on an Ares 1 for a LEO rendezvous with the EDS + Altair stack, launched on an Ares V?

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Wow. See, Bezos is a sleeper... As I said here, or another thread about Bezos turning down a Russian offer of a lunar trip for a couple hundred million $... why pay retail?

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6 minutes ago, KSK said:

Good grief. That's their idea of slow and methodical and never skipping steps? From New Shepard to that!  :0.0: And then straight to New Armstrong?? Maybe they should go for a New Borman first. :) 

I have to admit - I'll believe it when I see it, in the same way that I'll believe SpaceX's more grandiose plans when I see them flying. But man, do I want to see something the size of a Saturn V first stage coming in to land.

Best of luck Blue Origin!

I'd send up the lander and the Earth Departure Stage (EDS) separately. :) Unless I'm misremembering of course, but I thought the plan for Constellation was to launch the capsule and service module on an Ares 1 for a LEO rendezvous with the EDS + Altair stack, launched on an Ares V?

The EDS was required to get Altair into LEO, and the total mass sitting in LEO was around 180 metric tons.

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The chances of anything useful coming from "fan" video from many kms away seems pretty desperate, frankly.

I think they need to start a crash program of testing Stage 2s to destruction, but they also need a replica GSE setup, too.

Maybe a use for a landed F9 might be to stack a 2d stage on it, instrument the heck out of it, and see what data they can get past their usual telemetry.

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1 hour ago, _Augustus_ said:

If that's New Glenn, what is New Armstrong? New Armstrong's gotta be as big as the BFR...

You'd be able to colonize the Moon with a couple launches of Armstrong, I mean... Holy crap. Not only that, but massive space hotels with Glenn!

Quote from a comment on one of these articles:


New Shepard (Alan Shepard, suborbital)

New Glenn (John Glenn, orbital)

New Armstrong (Amazon moon base confirmed?!?)

Edited by Spaceception
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Yeah, Glenn is a BA-330 launcher as I see it.

When the Chinese land on the moon in however many years, Bezos will have dim sum and tee shirts to sell them... "My dad/mom went to the Moon, and all I got was this lousy BO t-shirt."

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Very ambitious :) And first flight by the end of this decade? As in four years? I'll believe it when i'll see it on launchpad. And some people here give Elon Musk flak when he announces his "grandiose" and "unrealistic" plans :P

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1 hour ago, Scotius said:

Very ambitious :) And first flight by the end of this decade? As in four years? I'll believe it when i'll see it on launchpad. And some people here give Elon Musk flak when he announces his "grandiose" and "unrealistic" plans :P

Quite. Some of the very same folks salivating over this announcement have been giving SpaceX nothing but grief when they're actually doing. I hope BO does pull it off, but deadlines and the space industry are not often good bedfellows. 

Oh, well, subbed anyway to see where this goes. :D

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