inigma

[ASC-III] Air Superiority Challenge - King of the Hill (BDArmory 4v4 AI Duels: WW1 Theme) - Now Concluded!

Recommended Posts

4 minutes ago, drtricky said:

I'd also worry about the weight affecting handling speed, how fast your plane is able to complete aerial maneuvers. More weight = slower maneuvers, which is a prime reason my mk3 fighter, weighing in at 35 tons, doesn't stand much of a chance in the next tourney.

That seems less of a fighter and more of a gunship. 

On that thought, one could technically win ASC by building a literal ship as a SAM platform. Probably. :P

Edited by Box of Stardust

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Box of Stardust said:

That seems less of a fighter and more of a gunship. 

On that thought, one could technically win ASC by building a literal ship as a SAM platform. Probably. :P

Any platform would be vulnerable to AIM-120's, so it would only be good if you're already KOTH, since draws count as victories to the KOTH.

You'd be surprised how maneuverable my heavy fighter is relative to its weight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, drtricky said:

Any platform would be vulnerable to AIM-120's, so it would only be good if you're already KOTH, since draws count as victories to the KOTH.

You'd be surprised how maneuverable my heavy fighter is relative to its weight.

Does the Goalkeeper function as CIWS as it actually should? It would help. Besides, if it's a ship, it can probably take an AMRAAM or two. Maybe. 

An interesting thought for ASC-A, which I think this idea would fit. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Archiving ASC Series I:

b6RRSh6.png

SERIES I

Air Superiority Challenge - King of the Hill 2v2 AI Duels
How Long Will You Claim Air Superiority?

Inigma's YouTube Channel

 Test your design against the current King of the Hill, then

Submit your entry to the ASC KerbalX.com Hangar and post a link in this thread to enter!

ASC Match Hosts:

@inigma | @jrodriguez | @g00bd0g | @Hobbes Novakoff | @DoctorDavinci | @commonnerfer

Check out these other ASC Divisions:

ASC-II (KSP1.1 Modern Style) May | ASC-III (KAX WWI Style) June | ASC-IV (No Restrictions) July | ASC-A (PvE Arena Ladder)
(Coming Soon!)

 

 

Last King of the Hill: JollyGreenGI -  TAM-Y22D "Fiesta" QUIET & TAM-Y22D "Fiesta" RIOT
Number of Wins: 3

Registered belligerents:

SuicidalInsanity - Solarius III - DEFEATED!

GDJ -  Interceptor - DEFEATED!

commonnerfer - ADAC - DEFEATED!

 

That concludes our roster for the first ever Air Superiority Challenge!

 

It begins...

inigma claims King of the the Hill on April 3, 2016 with a pair of Fighter Papa-1s over KSC and KSC Islands. Not soon after, his son challenges him with a pair of dp class fighters of his own.

 

The Air Superiority Challenge is perpetual. How long your team will claim the ASC KOTH title depends on how many times your designs survive challenges to your reign.

Match Rules:

  • To ease the load of the match hosts, and to increase confidence in your submission, you may only submit an entry that you've tested against the current King of the Hill. Your post must state you've done so.
  • Challenges to the King of the Hill will be processed on a first-come first-served basis.
  • Challenges are 3 rounds of 2v2 take off from KSC Island in opposite directions, BDArmory Tournament Mode (8km re-engagement over KSC Island).
  • Any craft that has disengaged is considered lost.
  • To win a round or claim title to King of the Hill, one of your surviving craft must:
    • have a Kerbal in your craft
    • have at least one engine remaining (out of fuel ok)
    • have at least one weapon attached (empty ok)
    • still appear on the VS list in the BDA GUI
  • In case of a draw or bugged round, a round will be added to the match.
  • All matches will be made available on the official YouTube playlist embedded above.
     

Entry Rules:

  • 2 manned aircraft limit (can be same or different) (probe cores permitted as backup control, but they can't claim victory).
  • Both craft must be built in KSP 1.0.5 (BDArmory is not compatible with 1.1)
  • No part limit (as can be reasonably processed, however a soft limit of 100 parts or less is requested to make matches fun to watch).
  • No stock part restrictions.
  • No mod parts except BDArmory (required) and these others made by @BahamutoDAdjustable Landing Gear, and F22 Cockpits
  • No restrictions on AI, Weapons Manager, or Missile Manager settings.
  • Craft file editing is permissible, but only to fine tune options within current in-game editor limits. Such as setting missiles to fire every 2 seconds, rather than 1 or 3, but not 0.1 (which is outside the in-game editor range).
  • Entries must contain download link for the craft file(s) to the ASC KerbalX.com Hangar or Dropbox.com and posted to this thread (static links prevent me having to update the OP with your new versions).
  • Only AI and Weapons Manager changes are permitted to the ASC champion between matches to fine-tune their AI response to upcoming challengers. No other part changes are permitted to the ASC champion.
  • All challengers are permitted to make any changes they wish to their craft up to and just before their match vs the current ASC champion. If you are next in line, please notify the match host so your changes are committed to the match. 
  • Only one active entry per person at a time (to prevent dueling yourself).
  • Match hosts will only engage staging once to turn on your engines, so be sure to tie in any components (such as ECM) you want activated to the staging action group.
     

Hosting Details:
Rounds will be processed depending on our time and general availability (hopefully semi-daily). With that in mind, let's see how far we can take this!

You are welcome to host your own matches and publish the results in this thread if I fail to respond within 7 days to the next belligerent challenge. If you decide to host an ASC match, you must have a dedicated KSP 1.0.5 install that only has the following mods installed:

Visual mods are permitted as long as they don't seriously degrade your match processing.

Match hosts must post all rounds to YouTube channel with KSP: ASC King of the HIll king vs belligerent (Round # of # or Full Match) BDArmory AI Dogfight Battle  and update this thread with a link.


Shall we get started? Who will be the first to challenge the ASC King of the Hill?

 

 

Air Superiority Challenge Series I -  Line of Succession

  1. inigma - Fighter Papa-1 - 3 wins
  2. Guggy13 - X-38F Interceptor - 1 win
  3. Redshift OTF - Stealth Weasel - 3 wins 
  4. gag09 - Wyvern & Swift - 3 wins
  5. NotAnAimbot - XF-7 Flogger - 2 wins
  6. captjo - Supreme Fighter 2 - 4 wins
  7. jrodriguez - X-Wing BD 1.7 - 2 wins
  8. JollyGreenGI - TAL-12K Matador REDTAL-12K Matador BLUE - 4 wins
  9. g00bd0g - VulTurRaptor Max - 5 wins
  10. SuicidalInsanity - Solarius III - 6 wins
  11. JollyGreenGI -  TAM-Y22D "Fiesta" QUIET & TAM-Y22D "Fiesta" RIOT - 3 wins

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Box of Stardust said:

Does the Goalkeeper function as CIWS as it actually should? It would help. Besides, if it's a ship, it can probably take an AMRAAM or two. Maybe. 

An interesting thought for ASC-A, which I think this idea would fit. 

Goalkeepers do function as intended for attacking ground targets, provided a targeting laser is used. Against airborne enemies, they work too. They only work against missiles if the AI is set to target missiles only, however. And even then, Goalkeepers are highly unlikely to shoot down missiles if mounted on a moving, airborne platform.

And unless multiple layers of armor are used, a good hit from a single AMRAAM is enough to take out large planes like the ones I build.

Edited by drtricky

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would appreciate a little feedback about my submission, the good and bad if you don't mind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, GDJ said:

I would appreciate a little feedback about my submission, the good and bad if you don't mind.

The ASC-I submission?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, JollyGreenGI said:

The ASC-I submission?

Yes. I did design it to be well balanced and maneuverable, light and quick, but that didn't seem to be enough.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm trying to design a plane for ASC-II, but I'm wondering if someone can help.  First of all, the AI seems to be doing weird things; the plane oscillates up and down when it tries to fly level (despite the plane being naturally stable and requiring no trim), it doesn't retract gear when taking off, and it really likes to run engines in dry mode.  As well, despite having ECM and chaff, I still routinely get killed by AMRAAMs; I think it's that the aircraft isn't very maneuverable, but increasing control deflection causes worse oscillations.  

Is there a detailed list of the rules for ASC-II?  I'd like to know if it's worth using the BDA weapons mounts over surface-attached cubic struts in order to keep part count down.  As well, have you considered implementing BDA limitations as a function of vessel mass, so that heavier, less maneuverable aircraft could carry more ordnance while lighter aircraft would be limited to fewer, and limiting not by part count, but by some other stat (total part mass and total part cost spring to mind)?

Finally, has anyone considered using PAC-3s instead of AIM-120s as long-range missiles?  If part count is the limiting factor, they're more effective and leave more room for countermeasures.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, GDJ said:

Yes. I did design it to be well balanced and maneuverable, light and quick, but that didn't seem to be enough.

Okay, so I might be considered biased, but I'll try not to be. Looking at the match, your fighters are definitely capable of dodging missiles, but it looks like they sometimes burn too much speed whilst doing so. That would leave them vulnerable to follow-up shots. I really do like the lightness of the fighter, but if you're going to be firing 2 missiles at a time I'd suggest carrying two more for more chances to attack, it's just a preference though. You could probably resubmit it into ASC-II and do pretty well! I'd just take a look at the AI settings so you can maintain at least 80m/s, or above whatever your stall speed is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ASC-II draft rules posted to OP.  Submissions will not be accepted (so don't post them please) until the "Coming Soon!" in the topic title is changed to "Submit Your Fighters!" and I make a post in this thread that submissions are open.

As per the previous series rules, submissions MUST state that they have been tested against the current king of the hill, which in this case will be my son submitting the Pretender to the Throne first entry (I promised him.)  ASC-II will probably start on Tuesday of next week.

Edited by inigma

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sooo, I'm just catching up. @JollyGreenGI Congrats on de-throning the laser boat! It seems the radiator plate armor was key. I wish I had thought of that :) However, I also saw solarius targeting your missile bay at times, apparently to no effect. Any input on that?

 

PIszISi.png

I am really looking forward to ASC-II.

Can we please have no ridiculous clipping? Engines inside of engines, lasers inside of lasers, turrets inside of body parts, etc...

Edited by g00bd0g

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, g00bd0g said:

Sooo, I'm just catching up. @JollyGreenGI Congrats on de-throning the laser boat! It seems the radiator plate armor was key. I wish I had thought of that :) However, I also saw solarius targeting your missile bay at times, apparently to no effect. Any input on that?

I am really looking forward to ASC-II.

Can we please have no ridiculous clipping? Engines inside of engines, lasers inside of lasers, turrets inside of body parts, etc...

Clipping is still ok in my book. The BDA 20 part limit will seriously help mitigate some of the imagined insanity, and keep crafts imaginative. :D 

Edited by inigma

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, inigma said:

Clipping is still ok in my book. The BDA 20 part limit will seriously help mitigate some of the imagined insanity, and keep crafts imaginative. :D 

You're the boss :) Is there a hard parts count limit as well?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, g00bd0g said:

However, I also saw solarius targeting your missile bay at times, apparently to no effect. Any input on that?

From below, the missile bay was definitely a weak point. It just so happened that the Solarius targeted the missile rack inside, destroying that but sparing the overall airframe. From above though, I covered up as much as I could, even more so on the RIOT variant. The bay is definitely a gamble, but it greatly reduces drag considering there were I think 16 AMRAAMS in there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, JollyGreenGI said:

From below, the missile bay was definitely a weak point. It just so happened that the Solarius targeted the missile rack inside, destroying that but sparing the overall airframe. From above though, I covered up as much as I could, even more so on the RIOT variant. The bay is definitely a gamble, but it greatly reduces drag considering there were I think 16 AMRAAMS in there.

I think the best reason to use the missile rack is to spoof the laser into targeting it instead of the cockpit! Just bury the missile rack in armor and you have a (mostly) laser proof craft. I though about using a probe core buried in armor for the same purpose.

Edited by g00bd0g

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Charlie_Zulu said:

I'm trying to design a plane for ASC-II, but I'm wondering if someone can help.  First of all, the AI seems to be doing weird things; the plane oscillates up and down when it tries to fly level (despite the plane being naturally stable and requiring no trim), it doesn't retract gear when taking off, and it really likes to run engines in dry mode.  As well, despite having ECM and chaff, I still routinely get killed by AMRAAMs; I think it's that the aircraft isn't very maneuverable, but increasing control deflection causes worse oscillations.  

The AI normally does this. if your plane is oscillating too much, try turning steer damping down. You can also move your CoL further behind the CoM to make it less sensitive to oscillations, but that will also decrease maneuverability. And remember that no plane is 100% immune to missiles, they can only be very good at it.

23 minutes ago, Charlie_Zulu said:

Is there a detailed list of the rules for ASC-II?  I'd like to know if it's worth using the BDA weapons mounts over surface-attached cubic struts in order to keep part count down.  As well, have you considered implementing BDA limitations as a function of vessel mass, so that heavier, less maneuverable aircraft could carry more ordnance while lighter aircraft would be limited to fewer, and limiting not by part count, but by some other stat (total part mass and total part cost spring to mind)?

...I can't believe I never thought to use ordinary parts to mount missiles instead of missile rails lol. And I like the mass rule! :cool:

 

Edited by drtricky

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, g00bd0g said:

I think the best reason to use the missile rack is to spoof the laser into targeting it instead of the cockpit! Just bury the missile rack in armor and you have a (mostly) laser proof craft. I though about using a probe core buried in armor for the same purpose.

I'm not absolutely sure if that's the case. In testing, I found Solarius targeting the root part (which wasn't the cockpit on Fiesta) which nearly invariably obliterated the craft. I'm not sure how targeting with the lasers work, it doesn't need to lead or anything.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, g00bd0g said:

You're the boss :) Is there a hard parts count limit as well?

yes. 100 max, 20 for BDA.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, g00bd0g said:

just setup an install with all mods. adjustable landing gear isn't working?

KAX and Adjustable Landing gear are not yet updated, so they are not needed at the moment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, inigma said:

KAX and Adjustable Landing gear are not yet updated, so they are not needed at the moment.

Thanks!

Also, how are we going to verify 20 BDA parts? either the host or opponent has to inspect in SPH? Seems like it would be easy to make an honest mistake and add too many BDA parts.

Also, just for aesthetics, can we have BDA missile rails not count against BDA part count? can just replace with cubic struts which are fugly...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, g00bd0g said:

Also, how are we going to verify 20 BDA parts? either the host or opponent has to inspect in SPH? Seems like it would be easy to make an honest mistake and add too many BDA parts.

Also, just for aesthetics, can we have BDA missile rails not count against BDA part count? can just replace with cubic struts which are fugly...

Kerbalx shows how many of each mod's part are on an aircraft, which is much easier than inspecting them for anyone who tries to hide parts. And I'm able to mount missiles on my dorito's wings fine without rails and without missile collision problems, though they float as a result.

Edited by drtricky

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shall I propose a rule then that all missiles must be mounted on a rail (up to 3 missiles per rail)?

Edited by inigma

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This thread is quite old. Please consider starting a new thread rather than reviving this one.

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.