inigma

[ASC-III] Air Superiority Challenge - King of the Hill (BDArmory 4v4 AI Duels: WW1 Theme) - Now Concluded!

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1 hour ago, JollyGreenGI said:

Uhh, what? Are you thinking of the Jernas Missile Turret?

Nope, he means the rotary rail. I'm annoyed too.

@inigma, can you explain a bit why it's banned?

I was wrong.

Edited by Dman979

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2 minutes ago, The_Mad_Emu said:

@inigma im starting construction on my ww1 fighter can i have a basic run down of the rules. or is it like no jet, only 50cal guns, must be biplanes

I can get into that.

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1 hour ago, JollyGreenGI said:

Uhh, what? Are you thinking of the Jernas Missile Turret?

oh yea, i meant the Jernas turret.

The rotary bomb rail is what I think is meant, in which case, since BDA imposes a limit of one missile per rail, then each rail on the rotary rail will be counted against the BDA part count. I will require players to state in their entry how many rails they have on their rotary, so we don't have to check ourselves. :)  It's an honor system at that point.

57 minutes ago, The_Mad_Emu said:

@inigma im starting construction on my ww1 fighter can i have a basic run down of the rules. or is it like no jet, only 50cal guns, must be biplanes

THat would be ASC III, sometime in June.  I'm thinking command seat only, KAX engines only, and a max of two 50 cal guns. And a hard limit of 50 parts. 4v4 or more.

Edited by inigma

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1 minute ago, inigma said:

oh yea, i meant the Jernas turret.

The rotary bomb rail is what I think is meant, in which case, since BDA imposes a limit of one missile per rail, then each rail on the rotary rail will be counted against the BDA part count. I will require players to state in their entry how many rails they have on their rotary, so we don't have to check ourselves. :)  It's an honor system at that point.

Okay, I see what you mean. I do want to mention though, this makes the bomb rail nearly obsolete, because it increases part usage nearly doubly depending on loadout, and it's mass is unfavourable since it weighs over 37 times more than a single missile rail.

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3 minutes ago, JollyGreenGI said:

Okay, I see what you mean. I do want to mention though, this makes the bomb rail nearly obsolete, because it increases part usage nearly doubly depending on loadout, and it's mass is unfavourable since it weighs over 37 times more than a single missile rail.

are you ok with 2 AIM 120s per rail on the rotary bomb rails? in the editor it looks awefully crowded. :)  I'm ok with making it 2 per rail. I just want to know what makes for a good balance.

Edited by inigma

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Just now, inigma said:

are you ok with 2 AIM 120s per rail on the rotary bomb rails? in the editor it looks awefully crowded. :)

I am. :)

But as we all know, my last craft was the Part Clipper, so... I might be biased.

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Just now, Dman979 said:

I am. :)

But as we all know, my last craft was the Part Clipper, so... I might be biased.

no worries. to keep it simple, then we will treat rotary bomb rails the same as standard rails. 3 per rail for AIM 9s, 2 per rail all other missiles.  

 

OP updated with latest rule changes.  I hope the ruleset is beginning to look more agreeable. :)

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3 minutes ago, inigma said:

no worries. to keep it simple, then we will treat rotary bomb rails the same as standard rails. 3 per rail for AIM 9s, 2 per rail all other missiles.  

 

OP updated with latest rule changes.  I hope the ruleset is beginning to look more agreeable. :)

I'm gonna have to disagree. I'd see the bomb rail as a way to reduce part count at the expense of mass. I could agree with the bomb rail counting as two parts, 1 being the rails and 2 being the 'motor'.

Edit: This way, it'd still be 3 max missiles mounted to a "rail" part, but maybe including 120's because the complexity of the part.

Edited by JollyGreenGI

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15 minutes ago, inigma said:

no worries. to keep it simple, then we will treat rotary bomb rails the same as standard rails. 3 per rail for AIM 9s, 2 per rail all other missiles.  

OP updated with latest rule changes.  I hope the ruleset is beginning to look more agreeable. :)

Just to make sure my accounting is correct, using the rotary rail as written, if I have 8 AMRAAMS on an 8-pronged rotary rail, that would be 8 (8 missiles) + 4 (8 missiles/2 AMRAAMS per rail) = 12 BDA parts, correct? Or would it need to be a 4 pronged rotary with two AMRAAMS bolted to each prong?

Also, since it's somewhat ambiguous at the moment, but do missiles need to be attached to a rail, or is mounting them directly to wings/on cubic struts/small hardpoints/whatever permitted?

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3 minutes ago, SuicidalInsanity said:

Just to make sure my accounting is correct, using the rotary rail as written, if I have 8 AMRAAMS on an 8-pronged rotary rail, that would be 8 (8 missiles) + 4 (8 missiles/2 AMRAAMS per rail) = 12 BDA parts, correct? Or would it need to be a 4 pronged rotary with two AMRAAMS bolted to each prong?

Also, since it's somewhat ambiguous at the moment, but do missiles need to be attached to a rail, or is mounting them directly to wings/on cubic struts/small hardpoints/whatever permitted?

The part won't allow more than one missile per rail, placing more than one causes things to break. Which is why I'm saying that the rotary rack (set at 6 rails) should be equivalent to two standard rails (which each can hold up to 3 missiles).

I believe @inigma mentioned that missiles will need to be mounted onto a rail, with up to 3 AIM-9s or 2 AIM-120s per rail.

 

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Is there a way to get radars turned on at the start of the match? There doesn't seem to be an option in the action groups menu. Sometimes the AI doesn't seem turn it on untill inside of AIM-120 firing range.

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Just now, g00bd0g said:

Is there a way to get radars turned on at the start of the match? There doesn't seem to be an option in the action groups menu. Sometimes the AI doesn't seem turn it on untill inside of AIM-120 firing range.

Nnnope. AI only switches it on when it chooses a radar guided missile for the first time.

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1 minute ago, JollyGreenGI said:

Nnnope. AI only switches it on when it chooses a radar guided missile for the first time.

Well poop. As a host I would be willing to turn on any BDA equipment that can't be bound to the staging action group. Otherwise this seems like a bit of "random" behavior that could imbalance a match.

@inigma Thoughts?

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25 minutes ago, SuicidalInsanity said:

Just to make sure my accounting is correct, using the rotary rail as written, if I have 8 AMRAAMS on an 8-pronged rotary rail, that would be 8 (8 missiles) + 4 (8 missiles/2 AMRAAMS per rail) = 12 BDA parts, correct? Or would it need to be a 4 pronged rotary with two AMRAAMS bolted to each prong?

Also, since it's somewhat ambiguous at the moment, but do missiles need to be attached to a rail, or is mounting them directly to wings/on cubic struts/small hardpoints/whatever permitted?

On the rotary: 8 amraams 8 rails, 16 BDA parts.  Or you could do 8 amraams 4 rails, 12 BDA parts. but as someone mentioned, having more than one missile per rail on the rotary may not work in practice.

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6 minutes ago, g00bd0g said:

Is there a way to get radars turned on at the start of the match? There doesn't seem to be an option in the action groups menu. Sometimes the AI doesn't seem turn it on untill inside of AIM-120 firing range.

Speaking of that, does the jammer get turned on when AI is in control? Also does the jammer even work? I can't seem to get a conclusive result. (In an completely unrelated note, what's your guys preference on bagels? I like mine blueberry bagel, lightly toasted with a thin layer of cream cheese)

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1 minute ago, xoknight said:

Speaking of that, does the jammer get turned on when AI is in control? Also does the jammer even work? I can't seem to get a conclusive result. (In an completely unrelated note, what's your guys preference on bagels? I like mine blueberry bagel, lightly toasted with a thin layer of cream cheese)

Jammers are not turned on by AI. So add them to your staging action group.

 

I like cinnamon bagels.

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3 minutes ago, inigma said:

On the rotary: 8 amraams 8 rails, 16 BDA parts.  Or you could do 8 amraams 4 rails, 12 BDA parts. but as someone mentioned, having more than one missile per rail on the rotary may not work in practice.

I'm sorry I keep saying it, but the rotary set to 6 rails is essentially 2 normal rails. Counting each mounting point disadvantages the rotary more.

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10 minutes ago, xoknight said:

Speaking of that, does the jammer get turned on when AI is in control? Also does the jammer even work? I can't seem to get a conclusive result. (In an completely unrelated note, what's your guys preference on bagels? I like mine blueberry bagel, lightly toasted with a thin layer of cream cheese)

ECM does work. Bind "activate" to staging group. Make sure you have enough battery to run them until the match starts (or beyond). ECM's do have an effect, more are better.

Edit: I love me some Everything bagles, toasted, cream cheese, diced olives, and green onions, mmm....

Edited by g00bd0g

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Just now, JollyGreenGI said:

I'm sorry I keep saying it, but the rotary set to 6 rails is essentially 2 normal rails. Counting each mounting point disadvantages the rotary more.

I agree the rotary rail is disadvantaged with BDA only allowing 1 missile per rail in practice if standard rail is allowed 2 AIM 120s. But to keep things as simple as possible, doing math for rotary rails is something I want players (and match hosts) to avoid having to do.  This was why I originally wanted to allow only 1 AIM 120 per rail regardless if standard or rotary.

For now, counting rotary rails on par with standard rails makes the simplest sense, even if it means it takes on a further disadvantage as a result of BDA limitations.  Thoughts?

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Just now, inigma said:

For now, counting rotary rails on par with standard rails makes the simplest sense, even if it means it takes on a further disadvantage as a result of BDA limitations.  Thoughts?

Well all I'm gonna say is I like my everything bagels with herb & garlic cream cheese.

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1 minute ago, JollyGreenGI said:

Well all I'm gonna say is I like my everything bagels with herb & garlic cream cheese.

You know, I won't look if someone mounts 2 AIM 120s or 3 AIM 9s to the walls of a cargo bay as long as there is rail to account for it. :)

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2 minutes ago, inigma said:

You know, I won't look if someone mounts 2 AIM 120s or 3 AIM 9s to the walls of a cargo bay as long as there is rail to account for it. :)

Yeah, gonna have to rework some things. Maybe the reduced weight will bring more to the table :P

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Well, I think I missed a decent chunk of the rail conversation. 

Not really agreeable to it. I'd already designed my craft to use the stock hardpoints to make up for it, and I've managed to put my plane at what is conceiveably actually a realistic max number of missiles, if a fighter was completely outfittted for air combat. It's sitting at 4 Sidewinders  and 6 AMRAAMs. 

And I'd also have to go with rotaty rails counting as one part. It's an idea with real roots.

The design challenge kinda got a bit un-fun. :/ I thought the part count limit was good enough. 

Edited by Box of Stardust

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5 hours ago, drtricky said:

Also, this is why I wanted to limit parts to 80.

Would you be ok then with a rule stating that an entry must look like a plane?

Edited by inigma

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1 minute ago, inigma said:

Also, this is why I wanted to limit parts to 80.

Would you be ok then with a rule stating that an entry must look like a plane?

Sure! Though...does that not even resemble a plane to you? :D

Edited by drtricky

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