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Multiplayer "logic"


Warzouz
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I was wondering why KSP hasn't multiplayer feature, then I looks at some multiplayer mods vids on that subject. Finally I understand that KSP is mostly a single player game that doesn't do well in multiplayer.

Basic KSP game is

  • Build a rocket
  • Fly it to LKO
  • Time warp
  • Go to the Mun or any other body
  • Time warp
  • Enter SOI
  • Time warp
  • Circularize/grav assist/aerocapture
  • Time warp
  • Deorbit and land and do some stuff
  • Wait for window (time warp)
  • Take-off and go to orbit
  • Timewarp
  • ... (you get my point)

Those timewarp can be very long. In solo play, some of us use this time to plan other mission and build other thing, do a quicker mission. But in multpiplayer, you can't let the other players wait when you want to do anything. Time frames become a real issue.

Most vids I saw were about plane dogfight. That's nice but not the core of KSP.

I'm wondering how the community and maybe Squad view this issue which isn't technical but "logical" (I don't know how to put in words...)

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Multiplayer must be done like turnbased e-mail multiplayer games(diplomacy for example) ie. sharing/mergin of save files among people. I don't really see it working either... unless everything is just limited to LKO, and chen SOI is changed, instances can be changed... so two people may go to the mun, seeing the mun at different points due to use of time warp, but then if they arrive at mun soi at the same real life time, then they both see each other arrive at Mun... I don't know... seems like a mess...

Not to mention the very high use of mods

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Yeah, DarkMP solved this issue by having all players in their own "universe" and they could sync the time up together and interact with each other. Probably one of the best solutions to the issue you describe

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3 minutes ago, lrd.Helmet said:

Didn't DMP do this correctly?

I don't really remember how it works but I think if you timewarped you were just ahead in time and you'd have a button to sync the time. Anyway you could play simultaneously without much trouble.

I don't know but such insights are very interesting. They help understand what KSP multiplayer would be.

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18 minutes ago, hendrack said:

And how is DarkMP handling mods?

Technically doesn't allow mods out of the box, but the server admin can enable them. I believe in that case each player must then use the same mods as the server admin has commanded.

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When people talk about MP nowadays, the instantly only think of MP as it was popularized with MMOs - everyone plays in the same world, but in the end, everyone plays alone, and happen just to have some real poeple around him. 

 

back in the days, there were a lot more games that had different approaches to MP - nowadays, this is mostly called co-op. But that is still a good form of MP, and I think it could be very fun. I'm doing a lot of IVA only gameplay, and building KSP in such a way that you can play it co-operative would be great. Have one player limited to IVA view, and one being in mission control with more info, and they both need to actually play together to get things done. Make time-warp at the discretion of one person in mission control, maybe make it so that multiple people can be in mission control, and make it so that each other player controls a vessel. There are some way to make KSP a truly meaningful MP game, but I don't think just having multiple people play their own space program in the same world benefits KSP much. That why I don't like DMP, because it is just that.

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Unless everyone is in time lockstep, 100% of the time, it's pretty goofy, IMHO. I'm not even slightly interested in MP. Yes, I know how DMP does it, it's probably the best solution in a situation where the best solution is still bad.

Hopefully anyone at Squad working on MP is not a person who would otherwise do something the game could actually use, like more details terrains, etc.

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Re the dogfight vids - is there not another sim platform that lets you design and fly your own planes? 

If Squad are looking for a commercially viable line extension, "KSP Dogfight Arena" could be it

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In my opinion, DMP's syncing system was probably one of the best possible solutions, and I hope SQUAD does something similar. However, with multiplayer, there would be the problem of griefers/trollers. My suggestion for that is that someone can only sync to you if you let them, and that you could create a "private" space station or base if you didn't want anyone else to use it. I am looking forward to multiplayer, though, and I hope that SQUAD can come up with a good solution.

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3 hours ago, cantab said:

An idea I think would work is to handle multiplayer on the career side of things. Allow players to actually put out contracts and other players to accept them.

Another option is a way to have your single-player game occasionally have other players involved, even if not in real time. For example, what if there were a "Space Race" mode where your program is possibly used as the foil for another player's program, and you never even know it. Their game has the "opposing" program modeled after yours, and when it gets to some milestone, say a certain array of the tech tree unlocked, it takes a craft you made at that point, and uses it.

Obviously time would have to be in the game somehow as well.

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So, I know that Squad has confirmed that there will be multiplayer in this game once the game is finished.  The question is, what kind?  Would it be a multiplayer server, like Minecraft? Or would it be more like a large universe in which everyone lives and launches rockets in one universe?  And if so, what would be the distance between the solar system?  

Please don't flame, it's my first time posting.

[MOD - Merged with existing topic - sumghai]

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Personally I don't see KSP as being a game suited to multiplayer in the slightest. Sure, as others have noted, you can dogfight... but at its core that is not what KSP is about.  The core of the game is about designing your own ships, flying them into space, and going places with them on journeys spanning a minimum of virtual hours, up to journeys of virtual years.

Multiplayer really only serves atmospheric flights in Kerbin.  Once your in LKO, what does multiplayer bring.... essentially somebody else gets to service your spacestation. Maneuvering in space is easy.... point in the right direction and burn (planning the maneuvers is the real skill, not point the craft and pressing Lshift). Does doing this in formation with a friend really gain you much... docking them for the burn would make more sense anyway. Also does arriving at a planet where your friend has previously placed his/her ship really gain you much either?

But it feels like Squad is forced to include it because very few games have no multiplayer, its virtually a requirement to publish a game nowadays. Which is probably why it has been so far down the priority list... even Squad can't see how it be benefits the core game but know they have to do it eventually anyway. 

In fact, putting my conspiracy theorist tin-foil hat on for a moment, I'd not be surprised if the deal to get it onto the consoles requires multiplayer either to be implemented, or plans to do so to be well advanced. I know not all games on console have multiplayer, but I bet for a small indie developer like Squad it was a requirement. 

That being said, some people have raised some great ideas. I particularly like the co-operative space program idea, where a player is the pilot, another is mission control etc.... athougth it runs the risk of being boring for anyone other than mission control. Think about it, "Pilot, point prograde now and burn till I say stop...." The idea of the rival space program could be good to. Essentially it could be a first to place a flag on (planet). The game clock determining the winner. Permanent infrastructure (space stations, bases, flags) appearing in both players games (not necessarily active ships) could give a sense of being in the same world (although time warp still creates problems with this too, including the possibility for time paradoxes).  

Edited by Tourist
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Maybe simply two pilots on one ship? Obviously not for large groups of people (unless you have a huge colony ship), but what I'm saying is that each player plays as a Kerbal, and they do one mission at a time like normal KSP, so time warp still works like normal. Maybe also have somebody playing as Gene. I think it could work, and EVA's would be fun! However, time warp on EVAs would be disabled. 

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My 2c,
The idea with multiplayer is to remember that you choose to play it. Remember too that if you do not want to have a cooperative experience you can choose single player.
That being said, when it comes to time warping both players should in theory be ready to warp at mainly similar times - or at least be expecting it. If the host is read to time warp but the players in the party are not it should simply prompt the party members to select when they are ready and the time warp can begin

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I would see two benefits of multiplayer aspects:

  1. multiplayer controlled ship:
    1. one captain responsible for commands
    2. one responsible for manoeuvre planning
    3. one responsible for landing dangerous sections
    4. splitting at landing with having maybe different vessels commanded by several players from their own pods
    5. stations docking challenges
    6. plane races to clear a contract first, new contracts on races (best time between checpoints)
  2. shared career: science and money shared, maybe per faction so that you can decide to compete for the most profitable space program.

 

DMP is a great mod but is missing these features and actually multiplayer is what I am really missing on my side.

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Maybe we can do a vote time warp so people can actually take vote to agree with time warp to specific time (plus all orbits show the location after time warp).

I can suggest that everyone should has their own KSC and all KSC is placed along Kerbin equatorial.

Edited by Anbang11
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There is always Multiplayer hardcore mode, with no time warp whatsoever.  Whenever I do a mission beyond LKO, I always feel a bit like I could be doing something more with the time that I whisk away by zooming forward to a Munar or Minmus injection.  I don't get beyond that often, with only one trip to Jool, a fly-by of Eve, and a landing on Duna, and that tends to amplify it a lot more.  Heck, I've started missions out to the Mun and then got up to get some chores done leaving the game in session.

I will grant that it seems a ridiculous and daunting idea, and the allowance for everyone riding the time-warp together seems a fair bargain, but that only works if you have everybody together on the same project.  If even one person would rather stay at Kerbin and explore the different biomes while everyone else wants to hop over to Duna, then it becomes a bit of strife, no matter how much that one person may concede to it.  For such a multiplayer to work, everyone has to be on the same project and on the same team.  If one person is left out, you have already broken the group and it won't be much longer before your multiplayer game ends up being whatever you do on your own time with maybe someone else showing up.  I've done the multiplayer experience too often to know this is always the likely outcome.

There was a challenge set up, called the IYMSS, where a lot of Youtube players would contribute to the construction of one space station. One player would send up the core module, then send the save file to the next, where they would add a laboratory, and then so on.  Even Danny2462 chipped in with a mass relay and a fighter, the latter being quite ridiculous but I definitely like his idea for the mass relay on a space station. It proved to be more stable than the rest of the station, once he got it up there.  It is projects like these I would like to see more of, myself.  KSP may seem a bit single-player oriented, but this community shows that there are plenty of ways around that.  Between projects like the IYMSS and all the challenge submissions on the forum here, we already have a strong multiplayer component to the game. We should take more advantage of that while we await to see what Squad has in mind for a stock multiplayer game.

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To everyone interested in or concerned about future KSP multiplayer: please, come visit us on the servers we have now. All the necessary things are at http://d-mp.org/: just install the mod, pick a server with players on it, join, and say hello. There aren't too many of us. You'll fit right in.

We love to colonize planets together. We love to fly in formation, or have a picnic at Kerbin's south pole. We also (rarely) love to laugh our helmets off at glitchy airplanes spazzing into and out of existence in the trans-Joolian void. I personally find current DMP massively enjoyable even without any added game elements. The simple feeling of being in a populated universe is wonderful. That, and lazily chatting with your buddies while building a lifter for everyone's joint expedition to Eve.

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