"Optical/3D Rectennas"

[shynung]

1 hour ago, Northstar1989 said:

Anyways, I started this thread to talk about Optical Rectennas.  Particularly their applications for spacecraft.  Maybe we could get the discussion back on-track?

More solar power available for spacecrafts. This means reduction or even elimination of the need to construct spaceborne nuclear reactors when using high-power electric propulsion systems. Not sure what else to add.

[Northstar1989]

3 hours ago, shynung said:

More solar power available for spacecrafts. This means reduction or even elimination of the need to construct spaceborne nuclear reactors when using high-power electric propulsion systems. Not sure what else to add.

What about the potential benefits for Mars colonization.  Better solar panels would mean less payload required to set up a colony or research outpost.  Also, would the raw marerials to make these be more easily acquired on Mars than those needed to make solar panels?

 

Regards,

Northstar

[shynung]

13 minutes ago, Northstar1989 said:

What about the potential benefits for Mars colonization.  Better solar panels would mean less payload required to set up a colony or research outpost.  Also, would the raw marerials to make these be more easily acquired on Mars than those needed to make solar panels?

That's more of a consequent benefit. Less solar panel mass also means lighter power generation systems on solar-powered spacecrafts, lowering launch mass as well.

Also, what are these things made out of, again?

[Northstar1989]

6 minutes ago, shynung said:

That's more of a consequent benefit. Less solar panel mass also means lighter power generation systems on solar-powered spacecrafts, lowering launch mass as well.

Also, what are these things made out of, again?

Carbon nanotubes attached to an aluminum oxide dielectric and aluminum or calcium as a functional metal...

Edited October 13, 2016 by Northstar1989

[shynung]

1 hour ago, Northstar1989 said:

Carbon nanotubes attached to an aluminum oxide dielectric and aluminum or calcium as a functional metal...

I don't know where we can get aluminium from Mars. The Moon has an abundance of it, though.

[Northstar1989]

3 hours ago, shynung said:

I don't know where we can get aluminium from Mars. The Moon has an abundance of it, though.

Mars has quite a lot of Aluminum ore, actually.  Aluminum, Magnesium, and (of course) Iron are all incredibly common on Mars...

There are large beds of dry clay in some places (the primary elements in clay are Aluminum and Oxygen), and significant veins of Calcium Sulfate in these same suspected ancient seas and riverbeds.  The spectroscopy data we have on the planet also shows high Al content.  So it's quite reasonable to expect we'll be able to mine these minerals on Mars...

 

Regards,

Northstar

Edited October 13, 2016 by Northstar1989

[magnemoe]

5 hours ago, shynung said:

That's more of a consequent benefit. Less solar panel mass also means lighter power generation systems on solar-powered spacecrafts, lowering launch mass as well.

Also, what are these things made out of, again?

This is important, in space weight is more important than price.
Don't think its something who you could make on site, here solar panels are far easier. 
If you could bring this on rolls and just make frames to put it on it would help a lot. 

[Northstar1989]

3 minutes ago, magnemoe said:

This is important, in space weight is more important than price.
Don't think its something who you could make on site, here solar panels are far easier. 
If you could bring this on rolls and just make frames to put it on it would help a lot. 

Why couldn't you make it on-site?  Mars has all the requisite elements (in fact, the Wikipedia article on Mars' Composition states that Alumimum and Calcium are two of the most common elements in the Martian crust),  and the actual manufacturing process is rather simple/easy once you develop the carbon nanotubes  (which are by and far the mist difgicult oart of the optical rectenna to make).  I'm sure that a Mars colony could bootstrap its industry to start making these fairly soon after planetfall... (within 10-12 years)

 

Regards,

Northstar

[magnemoe]

30 minutes ago, Northstar1989 said:

Why couldn't you make it on-site?  Mars has all the requisite elements (in fact, the Wikipedia article on Mars' Composition states that Alumimum and Calcium are two of the most common elements in the Martian crust),  and the actual manufacturing process is rather simple/easy once you develop the carbon nanotubes  (which are by and far the mist difgicult oart of the optical rectenna to make).  I'm sure that a Mars colony could bootstrap its industry to start making these fairly soon after planetfall... (within 10-12 years)

Regards,

Northstar

You have more materials to make microprocessors at home, just do it.  http://i.imgur.com/AyIjWVL.jpg

Having an 3d printer or crc machine is not the same as having an chip factory, they are serious industry.
Yes you can do it in an clean room with various tools, I have done it, however you would use decades making solar panels this way. 

 

Edited October 13, 2016 by magnemoe

[K^2]

Optical rectenas are expected to be manufactured by far simpler process. Relevant scales are hundreds of nanometers, not tens. A polymer substrate also makes things easier.

We are still talking optical lithography, not 3d printing, but clean room requirements are not going to be Intel-strict. We are talking your local university's prototype cleanroom, or even just a hood to keep the dust out. Unlike a CPU or display, a single grain of dust is not going to take out an entire array.

So production on Mars is not out of the question. In fact, so long as timelines work out, that is what I would expect ITS to ultimately rely on for their growing power needs on the Red Planet.

[magnemoe]

15 minutes ago, K^2 said:

Optical rectenas are expected to be manufactured by far simpler process. Relevant scales are hundreds of nanometers, not tens. A polymer substrate also makes things easier.

We are still talking optical lithography, not 3d printing, but clean room requirements are not going to be Intel-strict. We are talking your local university's prototype cleanroom, or even just a hood to keep the dust out. Unlike a CPU or display, a single grain of dust is not going to take out an entire array.

So production on Mars is not out of the question. In fact, so long as timelines work out, that is what I would expect ITS to ultimately rely on for their growing power needs on the Red Planet.

Ok so I might misread this a bit, still loads of new promising technology who don't measure up to existing ones or at best find niche use. 

[kunok]

As an engineer I think you are underestimating the difficulty of this kind of manufacturing process. I hope you are right and I'm wrong

Edited October 13, 2016 by kunok