[1.3.0] Kerbalism v1.2.9

[lordcirth]

7 hours ago, Antstar said:

Yeah, radiation is a problem for long expeditions in this mod. Without having the game for reference,  I think a kerbal would die from radiation after 150 yrs even on the surface of kerbin. I think we can improve shielding... with no shielding or during a solar storm they should take large doses but we should be able to do better with shielding. In particular,  with nuclear engines, placing 2.5tons of water between the crew and engine should make a huge difference (though I am not suggesting this can be directly put into the game- we should have a way to temper radiation from a nuke reactor).

 

I am also thinking if Kim Stanley robbinson's red mars, where they threw dirt on top of the habs for radiation protection. We should be able to make MUCH thicker, if inefficient,  shielding once we make planetfall. I see no reason a kerbal can't spend 50 years on duna with this precaution (and limited eva time).

Not an official request at the moment, just want to hear other peoples ideas on implementation and if it practical

Regarding engine radiation, a while back ShotgunNinja did say that he wanted to rework it to allow ship design to change the radiation amount, like you say.  In the meantime, he considered disabling emission.  Perhaps we should do that, or maybe turn it down.

[HaullyGames]

8 hours ago, Antstar said:

Yeah, radiation is a problem for long expeditions in this mod. Without having the game for reference,  I think a kerbal would die from radiation after 150 yrs even on the surface of kerbin. I think we can improve shielding... with no shielding or during a solar storm they should take large doses but we should be able to do better with shielding. In particular,  with nuclear engines, placing 2.5tons of water between the crew and engine should make a huge difference (though I am not suggesting this can be directly put into the game- we should have a way to temper radiation from a nuke reactor).

 

I am also thinking if Kim Stanley robbinson's red mars, where they threw dirt on top of the habs for radiation protection. We should be able to make MUCH thicker, if inefficient,  shielding once we make planetfall. I see no reason a kerbal can't spend 50 years on duna with this precaution (and limited eva time).

Not an official request at the moment, just want to hear other peoples ideas on implementation and if it practical

Hey guys,

I really like of those ideas.

Talking about

18 hours ago, lordcirth said:

A variable to scale *all* life support processes

This is a valid idea for make Kerbalism more dynamic, but I think this is not the only point that we need work, as @Antstar said, kerbal should be able to live more the 150 days with right precautions.

[Antstar]

1 hour ago, HaullyGames said:

Hey guys,

I really like of those ideas.

Talking about

This is a valid idea for make Kerbalism more dynamic, but I think this is not the only point that we need work, as @Antstar said, kerbal should be able to live more the 150 days with right precautions.

I was just trying out some ideas. for the next 3 months I will be away from home so I can only really contribute in the forum, not with the mod itself or testing.

btw, its something like 150 years, not days (probably a typo). The surface of Eve is well shielded, you can last there almost indefinitely.

The problem I found with radiation was that it was too much to leave kerbals on Duna's surface through several Hohmann windows - and if a solar storm hits it can't be protected against. This is not realistic - if you are in space, well bad luck, but on the surface there would be options to survive this.

Finally, when playing with Outer Planets Mod (which is explicity semi-supported in the OP) there is no realistic way to get to the outer planets without getting too much radiation, unless you use another mod like deepfreeze.

Anyway, Thanks @HaullyGames and anyone else who is developing this mod. It is a great mod and it will only get better from more attention

[HaullyGames]

Hey guys.

I'm working to fix inflate parts and I found one thing that I don't fell it is right.

If a vessel is landed in Kerbin and need inflate, it will consume atmosphere from part doing a Equalize between part.

for example:

• has a pod with 10m³ of atmosphere and a inflate module with 50m³.
• 1^st Step: Equalize, make both part has the same atmosphere level
• 2^nd Step: After equalize, define part as enabled.

Issues that I see:

• Even not full deploy, inflate can be habitable

// equalization succeeded if the levels are the same
// note: this behave correctly in the case the hab is the only enabled one or not
if (Math.Abs(vessel_level - hab_level) < 0.01) return State.enabled;

// in case vessel pressure is dropping during equalization, it mean that pressure
// control is not enough so we just enable the hab while not fully equalized
if (vessel_atmo.rate < 0.0) return State.enabled;

• Even vessel is landed on Kerbin, habitat will consume atmosphere resource and making low pressure to vessel environment.
  • I assume it doesn't need an extra atmosphere system, just use environment atmosphere from Kerbin.

Edited February 20, 2018 by HaullyGames

[Gotmachine]

Good to see that someone has taken on the continuation of this mod.

I have my own own fork of Kerbalism but due to a lack of free time I can't really work on it to make it playable.

Some aspects that I began to work on was habitat, comfort and radiation systems, because I don't like how they are implemented. Here are a few of my ideas straight from my dev notes, this a low effort post   :

Radiation :
   -> Separate radiation : low effect (simulate cancer probability) and high effect (simulate radiation poisoning)
   -> low effect :
      -> like current system, use radiation modifier, accumulate over time, non recoverable
      -> trigger a "trydeath" event : randomized, with probability of death increasing whith the rule accumulator level
      -> accumulate very slowly, balanced so there is no chance of dying in the first 15-20 years in an unshieded environnement
   -> high effect : 
      -> use a "highradiation" modifier, only triggered when radiation level is above a treeshold, and value is exponential (starts low)
      -> if modifier = 0, accumulator level decrease

Comfort
  - change comfort so it's like a resource, with level that can go up and down.
  - low comfort : kerbals have a probability of breakdown or becoming tourist
  - comfort modifiers :
    -> Living space
    -> Habitat enabled
    -> Surface bonus
    -> Not alone
    -> Comms
  -> comfort is a rule with an accumulator, we need to implement degen_modifier and regen_modifier

Habitat :
  - Habitat can be enabled/disabled in parts
  - Enabled habitat provide :
     - living space (comfort modifier)
     - atmosphere control -> require Oxygen & EC -> simulation of pressure is abandoned
     - thermal control -> require EC or coolant resource depending on thermal conditions
  - Disabled habitat make Kerbals put on their EVA suit 
    - This activate "EVA suit habitats" -> can the partmodule be alive independently from the part ???
    - Helmet visibility is toggled in the "InternalSeat" module of the "Internal" partmodule
  - You can't EVA from an enabled habitat, excepted at kerbin if pressure difference is not too much
  - EVA suit has an habitat module, a small radiator module, a battery

Note that the habitat revamp do mention a thermal system that I got mostly implemented (I got radiator module working fine and a very buggy and unbalanced habitat/rule framework system). You can check the fork on my github account if you want to see the code.

Edited February 20, 2018 by Gotmachine

[lordcirth]

4 hours ago, Gotmachine said:

Good to see that someone has taken on the continuation of this mod.

I have my own own fork of Kerbalism but due to a lack of free time I can't really work on it to make it playable.

Some aspects that I began to work on was habitat, comfort and radiation systems, because I don't like how they are implemented. Here are a few of my ideas straight from my dev notes, this a low effort post   :

Radiation :
   -> Separate radiation : low effect (simulate cancer probability) and high effect (simulate radiation poisoning)
   -> low effect :
      -> like current system, use radiation modifier, accumulate over time, non recoverable
      -> trigger a "trydeath" event : randomized, with probability of death increasing whith the rule accumulator level
      -> accumulate very slowly, balanced so there is no chance of dying in the first 15-20 years in an unshieded environnement
   -> high effect : 
      -> use a "highradiation" modifier, only triggered when radiation level is above a treeshold, and value is exponential (starts low)
      -> if modifier = 0, accumulator level decrease

Comfort
  - change comfort so it's like a resource, with level that can go up and down.
  - low comfort : kerbals have a probability of breakdown or becoming tourist
  - comfort modifiers :
    -> Living space
    -> Habitat enabled
    -> Surface bonus
    -> Not alone
    -> Comms
  -> comfort is a rule with an accumulator, we need to implement degen_modifier and regen_modifier

Habitat :
  - Habitat can be enabled/disabled in parts
  - Enabled habitat provide :
     - living space (comfort modifier)
     - atmosphere control -> require Oxygen & EC -> simulation of pressure is abandoned
     - thermal control -> require EC or coolant resource depending on thermal conditions
  - Disabled habitat make Kerbals put on their EVA suit 
    - This activate "EVA suit habitats" -> can the partmodule be alive independently from the part ???
    - Helmet visibility is toggled in the "InternalSeat" module of the "Internal" partmodule
  - You can't EVA from an enabled habitat, excepted at kerbin if pressure difference is not too much
  - EVA suit has an habitat module, a small radiator module, a battery

Note that the habitat revamp do mention a thermal system that I got mostly implemented (I got radiator module working fine and a very buggy and unbalanced habitat/rule framework system). You can check the fork on my github account if you want to see the code.

Hmm, a system that says "no you can't zap them for an hour and be fine because it's only half the lifetime dose" makes sense.  I'd prefer to avoid complication, though.  I think those of us who play with this mod a lot underestimate how long it takes some new players to learn it already.  Right now, one thing that all the resources have in common is that in the VAB planner, they all give you a number of days that you can survive, period.  You compare this to your mission, and you survive.  While not entirely realistic, this is simple, consistent, and IMHO good for gameplay.  Randomized death, even carefully balanced, sounds harder to learn and prone to be frustrating when the RNG rolls poorly.  Adding an 'airlock' system is interesting, but it should at least be optional.

[ron1n1]

I enjoyed this mod alot @shotgunninja
I tweaked kerbalism to use TAC life support. I play with a high rate of food consumption but I always wanted to grow my own food with your greenhouse. I have gone through all the config files in the Kerbalism folder including the greenhouse cfg,  but I dont see any line that specifies "the amount of food grown by the greenhouse per harvest cycle".

Is this value hard-coded in the kerbalism.dll file or is there a place where it can be found and modified?

[Nathangun]

4 minutes ago, ron1n1 said:

I enjoyed this mod alot @shotgunninja
I tweaked kerbalism to use TAC life support. I play with a high rate of food consumption but I always wanted to grow my own food with your greenhouse. I have gone through all the config files in the Kerbalism folder including the greenhouse cfg,  but I dont see any line that specifies "the amount of food grown by the greenhouse per harvest cycle".

Is this value hard-coded in the kerbalism.dll file or is there a place where it can be found and modified?

Should be in the profile cfg. 

[HaullyGames]

1 hour ago, ron1n1 said:

I enjoyed this mod alot @shotgunninja
I tweaked kerbalism to use TAC life support. I play with a high rate of food consumption but I always wanted to grow my own food with your greenhouse. I have gone through all the config files in the Kerbalism folder including the greenhouse cfg,  but I dont see any line that specifies "the amount of food grown by the greenhouse per harvest cycle".

Is this value hard-coded in the kerbalism.dll file or is there a place where it can be found and modified?

GameData\Kerbalism\Profiles\Default.cfg

crop_size is the value that are you looking for.

// ============================================================================
// Setup greenhouse
// ============================================================================
@PART[kerbalism-greenhouse]:NEEDS[ProfileDefault]:FOR[Kerbalism]
{
  MODULE
  {
    name = Greenhouse

    crop_resource = Food                // name of resource produced by harvests
    crop_size = 2500.0                  // amount of resource produced by harvests

 

[ron1n1]

6 hours ago, Nathangun said:

Should be in the profile cfg. 

Ah...so it is...much appreciated Nathangun and HaullyGames...thank you

[Dr. Jet]

On 15.02.2018 at 7:33 PM, Dr. Jet said:

Input: 65.5% CO₂, 24.6% Water and 9.9% Fertilizer

Output: 47.64% O₂, 50.2% Food, 2.16% Waste

Seems that I was terribly wrong. That's what happens when one start  doing math under flu and high temperature. 

Greenhouse solid output is plants. Veggies. Not dehydrated Food i calculated above! Veggies are juicy, they are 85-95% pure water. Thus much more water is needed.

Also Fertilizer contains Carbon, which I forgot to count.

I'm still sick, but brain works kinda better... i hope.

First thing first, there was a mistake in fertilizer calculation. Minerals should be 49.3%, not 50,5%.

 

	Water	CO2	NH3	(NH4)2CO3	Biomass (Food?)	Fertilizer
C		27,27%		12,50%	4,50%	6,34%
O	88,89%	72,73%		50,00%	84,20%	25,35%
H	11,11%		17,65%	8,33%	10,65%	4,23%
N			82,35%	29,17%	0,15%	14,79%
M					0,50%	49,30%

 

For each 1 kg of biomass we should input  0,01014 kg of Fertilizer to fulfill both Nitrogen and Minerals.

This amount of Fertilizer will also add Carbon (0,00064 kg), Oxygen  (0,00257 kg) and Hydrogen (0,00043 kg).

Remaining Carbon should be inputed as CO₂ which give us 0,16264 kg of CO₂ input.

Photosynthesis CO2 -> O2 mass conversion rate is 44/32. Thus main O₂ output is 0,11829 kg.

Remaining Hydrogen should be inputed as Water which give us 0,95464 kg of Water input.

BUT! Let's check water by oxygen. Hm-m-m... It gives us 0,94436 kg Water input. Mismatch, yes. Noone promised that percentages for plant composition are EXACT. But those numbers are pretty close.

What we'll do is just take bigger number to cover hydrogen needs and exhaust that extra oxygen for kerbals to breathe which will be mere 0,00914 kg.

So-o-o... for greenhouse inputs and ouptuts should be proportional to:

Input: 0.16264 kg CO₂, 0.95464 kg Water, 0.01014 kg  Fertilizer

Output: 0,12743 kg O₂, 1 kg Biomass

BTW, mass balance was achieved, which is a good sign. Hope no more mistakes were made.

But how to convert Biomass to Food? Do we suppose that Food should be dehydrated? (Most RL space foods are).

According to TAC LS math sheet, Kerbalism "Food" resource (which have the same density) is "half-dehydrated (52% water) packaged food".

Packaged food is BAD for calculation. We don't have packages growing in greenhouse! 

Fortunately, @TaranisElsu mentioned a mass fraction of Food that is packaging (17.52%).

Thus half-dehydrating 1kg of edible Biomass and re-packaging it in re-used packages will produce 0.568*1.1752=0.6675136 kg of Food and 0,432 kg of Water. (Careful here! Mass conservation law is abused, actual food mass is only 0.568 kg! Re-calculating Foood density for non-packaged variant could do the trick, but it's laboursome).

The last question remaining - is what percent of Biomass produced is edible and what percent is Waste? 

Edited February 25, 2018 by Dr. Jet
Food mass fraction

[b0ss]

Is this mod compatible with RSS out of the box? Or is a little bit of manual tweaking needed? 

[lordcirth]

4 hours ago, b0ss said:

Is this mod compatible with RSS out of the box? Or is a little bit of manual tweaking needed? 

Should be; but it may be unbalanced.  Since it takes longer to get anywhere, radiation especially may become hard  to manage.  If you look above, I've already asked for a quick tunable to rescale speeds:

 

[b0ss]

I wanna keep everything as realistic as possible, no matter how ridiculously hard it is! :3 Unless RSS+Kerbalism is already unrealistic due to it being that hard

Edited February 25, 2018 by b0ss

[lordcirth]

2 hours ago, b0ss said:

I wanna keep everything as realistic as possible, no matter how ridiculously hard it is! :3 Unless RSS+Kerbalism is already unrealistic due to it being that hard

Using RSS with stock parts, without a scaling mod like SMURFF,  is already way too hard.  KSP stock parts are nerfed relative to real life, but not the 10x that the solar system was nerfed.

[b0ss]

I use way too many mods to maintain SMURFF behavior. Just need to know if the difficulty of launching rockets through the van Allen belts is as hard as it is IRL as it is in Kerbalism RSS

[HaullyGames]

6 hours ago, Dr. Jet said:

	Water	CO2	NH3	(NH4)2CO3	Biomass (Food?)	Fertilizer
C		27,27%		12,50%	4,50%	6,34%
O	88,89%	72,73%		50,00%	84,20%	25,35%
H	11,11%		17,65%	8,33%	10,65%	4,23%
N			82,35%	29,17%	0,15%	14,79%
M					0,50%	49,30%

 

For each 1 kg of biomass we should input  0,01014 kg of Fertilizer to fulfill both Nitrogen and Minerals.

This amount of Fertilizer will also add Carbon (0,00064 kg), Oxygen  (0,00257 kg) and Hydrogen (0,00043 kg).

Remaining Carbon should be inputed as CO₂ which give us 0,16264 kg of CO₂ input.

Photosynthesis CO2 -> O2 mass conversion rate is 44/32. Thus main O₂ output is 0,11829 kg.

Remaining Hydrogen should be inputed as Water which give us 0,95464 kg of Water input.

BUT! Let's check water by oxygen. Hm-m-m... It gives us 0,94436 kg Water input. Mismatch, yes. Noone promised that percentages for plant composition are EXACT. But those numbers are pretty close.

What we'll do is just take bigger number to cover hydrogen needs and exhaust that extra oxygen for kerbals to breathe which will be mere 0,00914 kg.

So-o-o... for greenhouse inputs and ouptuts should be proportional to:

Input: 0.16264 kg CO₂, 0.95464 kg Water, 0.01014 kg  Fertilizer

Output: 0,12743 kg O₂, 1 kg Biomass

But how to convert Biomass to Food? Do we suppose that Food should be dehydrated? (Most RL space foods are).

According to TAC LS math sheet, Kerbalism "Food" resource (which have the same density) is "half-dehydrated (52% water) packaged food".

Packaged food is BAD for calculation. We don't have packages growing in greenhouse! 

Fortunately, @TaranisElsu mentioned a mass fraction of Food that is packaging (17.52%).

Thus half-dehydrating 1kg of edible Biomass and re-packaging it in re-used packages will produce 0.568*1.1752=0.6675136 kg of Food and 0,432 kg of Water. (Careful here! Mass conservation law is abused, actual food mass is only 0.568 kg! Re-calculating Foood density for non-packaged variant could do the trick, but it's laboursome).

The last question remaining - is what percent of Biomass produced is edible and what percent is Waste? 

Sorry @Dr. Jet, but I didn't get it!

1Kg of Biomass, then you will start consider dehydrating , packaging! , no waste , sorry man, but you are confusing me!

I assume that it is a greenhouse, then the food is not dehydrated! I assume, I'm not sure.

I understood that to store the food, we need to first dehydrate and pack it, but on the game, the food is already ready to be consumed!  so it is not dehydrated!

If we are assume that food unit is dehydrated, this way we will need to review drinking Rule, we will need to create a new process to water consumption to the food re-hydration!

Kerbalism system doesn't have the same rules that TAC, you cannot compare both ignoring the differences.

Other thing is:

• half-dehydrating 1kg of edible Biomass and re-packaging it in re-used packages will produce 0.568*1.1752=0.6675136 kg of Food and 0,432 kg of Water ?????
  • 0.568Kg actual food mass. From where have you found this value?

PLS, SOMEONE HELP ME!!! 

The "Life support resource amounts" sheet calculating Food/unit = ( Dry mass + 52% water + 17.52% package)

This is getting so complicated! 

Anyways, following my math using your information + "Life support resource amounts" sheet.

// NEW Math (Math for 1Kg of Biomass)
// 1.12742Kg INPUT
// 1.12742Kg OUTPUT
//
// INPUT
//    14.4% CO2 (0.001951Kg/unit) = 0.1626Kg    = 83.34 units =
//    84.6% H2O (1Kg/unit)        = 0.9546Kg    =  0.95 unit  =
//     1.0% Fertilizer (1Kg/unit) = 0.0101Kg    =  0.01 unit  =
//
// OUTPUT
//    88.7% Biomass (1Kg/unit)    = 1.0000Kg    =  1.00 unit  =
//    11.3% O2 (0.00141Kg/unit)   = 0.1274Kg    = 90.35 units =
//
// Food "as-shipped" mass with 52% of water + package = 0.281Kg/unit
// Then
// Food (0.281Kg/unit) mass:
//    52.0% H20                   = 0.1433Kg / food unit
//    17.5% Package               = 0.0491Kg / food unit
//    30.5% Dry Food              = 0.0857Kg / food unit
// BIOMASS (1Kg)
//    ?% ? (?/unit)   = ?Kg
//    ?% ? (?/unit)   = ?Kg
//
// We should assume that we already have the package as an empty package, this mean will not consider the package weight

 

[Dr. Jet]

14 hours ago, HaullyGames said:

Sorry @Dr. Jet, but I didn't get it!

1Kg of Biomass, then you will start consider dehydrating , packaging! , no waste , sorry man, but you are confusing me!

I assume that it is a greenhouse, then the food is not dehydrated! I assume, I'm not sure.

Yeah, it would be MUCH simpler if Food was just fresh veggies... But Kerbalism Food density equals TAC LS Food density. And TAC LS Food resource acccording to TAC LS math sheet is half-dehydrated (52% water) packaged food^*. TAC LS Water consumption rate is calculated concidering that. Don't know about Kerbalism rate, but there is a high chance that numbers were just borrowed from TAC LS.

* - We actually can think of it such as some products are fully dehydrated (freeze-dryed) and some are still fresh.

14 hours ago, HaullyGames said:

Other thing is:

• half-dehydrating 1kg of edible Biomass and re-packaging it in re-used packages will produce 0.568*1.1752=0.6675136 kg of Food and 0,432 kg of Water ?????
  • 0.568Kg actual food mass. From where have you found this value?

Oh... it seems that my brain is still not OK with that flu.  Number is truly weird and I can't remember how I got to it.

Biomass is ~90% water. We need water to be at 52%. That means 0.1 kg of solid fraction from 1 kg Biomass becomes 48% and mass of unpackaged half-dehydrated food should be 0.1/0.48 = 0.208 kg

Water squeezed back from Biomass should be 1 - 0.208 = 0.792 kg.

Hm-m-m... Maybe for the sake of simplicity we should just ignore the "packaged" thing? Kerbals will eat a bit MORE from greenhouse than they should, but... the whole thing will be simpler.

 

One more thought - Kerbalism "harvesting" mechanic - can we use it to periodically batch-convert constantly growing Biomass to Food? 

[HaullyGames]

1 hour ago, Dr. Jet said:

One more thought - Kerbalism "harvesting" mechanic - can we use it to periodically batch-convert constantly growing Biomass to Food? 

No, Harvesting process will produce OUTPUT(O₂)  as running, but will produce Food("Biomass") only when the player click in "Harvest".

I will assume that Biomass is only an intermediary value between INPUT and OUTPUT.

This means that I will input CO₂, H₂O, Fertilizer and get  11.3% O₂, 88.7% Biomass = (79% H₂O, 21% Food) or something like that.

 

[garithmar]

Is there anyway to change the range of antenna's to 10x without changing every single one individually?  I'm using 10x size solar system.  Also setting the signal to false in the settings.cfg doesn't turn off the signal's can we get that feature back?

[HaullyGames]

1 hour ago, garithmar said:

Also setting the signal to false in the settings.cfg doesn't turn off the signal's can we get that feature back?

Sorry, I will fix it tonight.

1 hour ago, garithmar said:

Is there anyway to change the range of antenna's to 10x without changing every single one individually?  I'm using 10x size solar system.  Also setting the signal to false in the settings.cfg doesn't turn off the signal's can we get that feature back?

I can create a signal modifier and add it on Settings.cfg.

 

[garithmar]

Awesome work HaullyGames its definitely coming along.

 

 

[HaullyGames]

Hi @Dr. Jet,

Please review the sheet below.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mLXosB3ZGtX_VY3U_fVqP4Zc7gqS-qto/view?usp=sharing

[Nathangun]

On 2/15/2018 at 8:44 PM, NomenNescio said:

There are no individual taps for Food or Oxygen or Waste. That's what I meant when I asked for taps with all of these; one tap only with food, one tap only with water, and so on.

Also if I'm to add these on my own, how do I find the unitsPerVolume number for nitrogen for example.

 

Just catching up on this thread, have you tried using configurable containers mod?

It's quite useful if you want to have a tank with various food/gas/fuel types.

[lordcirth]

1 hour ago, Nathangun said:

 

Just catching up on this thread, have you tried using configurable containers mod?

It's quite useful if you want to have a tank with various food/gas/fuel types.

Kerbalism already has changable containers (like a dozen other mods; we really ought to deduplicate).