1.1 is seriously bugged, but comes it as a surprise...

[Temeter]

...considering every update apparently is accompanied by an inhuman crunch phase, which is even told in Devnotes? I love what the devs do, but some parts of KSP's management got to be seriously loveed up.

 

Also fits some stuff that just got out on reddit/4chan, and which got 'soft confirms' by some ex devs and people working with Squad:

https://www.reddit.com/r/KerbalSpaceProgram/comments/4huber/former_ksp_media_group_member_pdtv_posts_about/

[Glaran K'erman]

Verrrry interesting...

[Tr1gg3r]

Interesting bedtime reading....

sounds much like any other company in the world, that are trying to increase profits -

long hours

poor pay

not enough staff.

Left to the Devoted few to drag it into an operative state.

Business as usual

[Gaarst]

Though this kind of issues is to be expected in a business that has to make profits (especially in game development which I've heard is a pretty harsh field), it is a good thing to be reminded that there are always two sides to a coin.

Edit: I don't want a war to start on this topic, but I would appreciate to read an official answer from Squad.

Edited May 4, 2016 by Gaarst

[Tankman101]

Ah yes, this whole witch hunt.

Ignoring the fact that the person sources 4chan (Of all places...) the entire album basically sounds like a person whining about being more important than they actually were (They did HTML and streamed a bit...?).  The input from ex-devs basically amounts to "I can't talk about it" and "I've heard things".

it all seems like fairly standard (not good by any means, but eh) fare being blown up to ridiculous proportions.

[Gaarst]

1 minute ago, Tankman101 said:

Ah yes, this whole witch hunt.

Ignoring the fact that the person sources 4chan (Of all places...) the entire album basically sounds like a person whining about being more important than they actually were (They did HTML and streamed a bit...?).  The input from ex-devs basically amounts to "I can't talk about it" and "I've heard things".

it all seems like fairly standard (not good by any means, but eh) fare being blown up to ridiculous proportions.

On one side we have people most likely exaggerating, on the other we have utter silence on the issue... Seems pretty balanced to me, not the right way to bring a problem to light, but balanced.

[Sandworm]

8 minutes ago, Tankman101 said:

Ah yes, this whole witch hunt.

Ignoring the fact that the person sources 4chan (Of all places...) the entire album basically sounds like a person whining about being more important than they actually were (They did HTML and streamed a bit...?).  The input from ex-devs basically amounts to "I can't talk about it" and "I've heard things".

it all seems like fairly standard (not good by any means, but eh) fare being blown up to ridiculous proportions.

Yes and no.  Much of the stuff is standard, but you don't need to be an insider or even a mod developer to see the telltale signs that this isn't normal.  Squad is a very strange company.  They do not operate as other developers.  They do not generate the same material that one would expect from a small developer.  That, and little inconsistencies in public statements and/or actions point to a very closed shop dominated by a small group.  This isn't the complaint of a customer, this is an observation of someone who works in compliance as a profession and is seeing red flags.  That doesn't mean they don't make a fun game.  They do.  I'm just not sure I would like to be much more engaged with them beyond being a customer.

Edited May 5, 2016 by Sandworm

[regex]

Yeah, really just sounds like standard company drama.  I've heard horror stories about the video game industry in general, and let's just say there's a reason I haven't pursued a career in video games.

[Tankman101]

10 minutes ago, Gaarst said:

On one side we have people most likely exaggerating, on the other we have utter silence on the issue... Seems pretty balanced to me, not the right way to bring a problem to light, but balanced.

Too bad it's balance via extremism...

 

7 minutes ago, Sandworm said:

Yes and no.  Much of the stuff is standard, but you don't need to be an insider or even a mod developer to see the telltale signs that this isn't normal.  Squad is a very strange company.  They do not operate as other developers.  They do not generate the same material that one would expect from a small developer.  That, and little inconsistencies in public statements and/or actions point to a very closed shop dominated by a small group.  This isn't the complaint of a customer, this is an observation of someone who works in compliance as a profession and is seeing red flags.  That doesn't mean they don't make a fun game.  They do.  I'm just not sure I would like to be much more engaged with them beyond being a customer.

I mean, they're kind of stuck between "triple A publisher" and "indie development".  That combination is bound to be relatively unpleasant, but it seems it isn't really resulting in anything out of the ordinary.

[Jarin]

1 minute ago, Tankman101 said:

I mean, they're kind of stuck between "triple A publisher" and "indie development".  That combination is bound to be relatively unpleasant, but it seems it isn't really resulting in anything out of the ordinary.

Just because it's "ordinary" for people to dodge labor laws by employing in places that don't have them doesn't mean it's something we should encourage or excuse.

[Tiberion]

11 minutes ago, Sandworm said:

Yes and no.  Much of the stuff is standard, but you don't need to be an insider or even a mod developer to see the telltale signs that this isn't normal.  Squad is a very strange company.  They do not operate as other developers.

Think about this; They had no one at Squad with any Game Development experience and as far as I know they have never hired anyone that has such experience in the 5 years since the game "emerged." Its been mostly community sourced. So no, there is no "normal"

There have definitely always been issues. It took them a long long time to find people who could represent the game to the mainstream via Media/Marketing, and in the interim there was a lot of damage done between them and certain parts of the community. There's been regular growing pains, and mistakes, and its never been "normal"

On the other hand, stressful working conditions, crunch, and poor job security are about as normal as things get in the industry, and  yet Squad gave entry to the industry to a lot of people at a much lower threshold than they would have found elsewhere.

 

My question? Is there any benefit from discussion this within the community? Would it change anything? Or just create more negativity? My experience here suggests the latter.

And then there's the origin of all of this, the post on 4chan that basically ends with "I want to damage the company and the game so it sells less copies because they don't deserve it." No professional would ever say that even if they believed it to the depths of their soul. Muckraking is the worst, and no sane company would ever engage with a topic like this.

 

In my opinion, it barely deserves attention.

[Tankman101]

6 minutes ago, Jarin said:

Just because it's "ordinary" for people to dodge labor laws by employing in places that don't have them doesn't mean it's something we should encourage or excuse.

Not excusing, just saying people are blowing it up (SQUAD IS LITERALLY SATAN) much more than it really deserves.

[Sandworm]

7 minutes ago, Tiberion said:

Think about this; They had no one at Squad with any Game Development experience and as far as I know they have never hired anyone that has such experience in the 5 years since the game "emerged." Its been mostly community sourced. So no, there is no "normal"

There have definitely always been issues. It took them a long long time to find people who could represent the game to the mainstream via Media/Marketing, and in the interim there was a lot of damage done between them and certain parts of the community. There's been regular growing pains, and mistakes, and its never been "normal"

On the other hand, stressful working conditions, crunch, and poor job security are about as normal as things get in the industry, and  yet Squad gave entry to the industry to a lot of people at a much lower threshold than they would have found elsewhere.

 

My question? Is there any benefit from discussion this within the community? Would it change anything? Or just create more negativity? My experience here suggests the latter.

And then there's the origin of all of this, the post on 4chan that basically ends with "I want to damage the company and the game so it sells less copies because they don't deserve it." No professional would ever say that even if they believed it to the depths of their soul. Muckraking is the worst, and no sane company would ever engage with a topic like this.

 

In my opinion, it barely deserves attention.

There is benefit.  Squad is only ever going to react to the community, to their customer base.  Us calling them out on their problems may well get them moving on fixes.  They have/had the cash to bring in pros.  They chose not to.  There is a chance that pressure from the community might cause them to alter course.  The only other option is wait-and-see ... which hasn't been going well.  There is only so much time. 

Edited May 5, 2016 by Sandworm

[Tankman101]

Theres a world of difference between calling them out for bad behavior and setting yourself on fire, running in circles, and yelling that SQUID is evil.

Most of that mess of a thread is the latter.

[DChurchill]

Before this gets locked, I remember when this went down. It was a big kerfuffle then, but that was what? 2 Years ago? And he's dredging it up now because "the NDA expired"? Someone has a Joolian sized chip on thier shoulder.

[John JACK]

dc;dr

Whatever anyone can say about how Squad works, single thing is true: they do make the game better, and don't make it worse.

[CommanderSpock]

There has been large amounts of drama over on the reddit over a former community lead wrote these comments on 4chan:

 

 

 

 

 

I was wondering if we could get something from @KasperVld on this... Moderators, feel free to lock this if it is against some rule.

 

CommanderSpock

[Yellowburn10]

I'm kinda surprised this thread isn't at active as I thought it would be. KSP communities elsewhere, on the other hand...

[NFUN]

1 hour ago, Tankman101 said:

Ah yes, this whole witch hunt.

Ignoring the fact that the person sources 4chan (Of all places...) the entire album basically sounds like a person whining about being more important than they actually were (They did HTML and streamed a bit...?).  The input from ex-devs basically amounts to "I can't talk about it" and "I've heard things".

it all seems like fairly standard (not good by any means, but eh) fare being blown up to ridiculous proportions.

Nova said that the allegations weren't outrageous.

[LameLefty]

Yeah, before this gets locked, let me say this:

I am 26 years out of college this year. I am a licensed professional in my field, with a very long, broad experience base. I recently read some anonymous review of my employer on a famous internet employer-rating site. What those people wrote is NOT in any way comparable to my personal experiences in my 2-plus years at my current gig.

So yeah, take the anonymous comments and complaints with a LARGE crystal of sodium chloride. 

[klgraham1013]

Just because poor business and labor practices are common place doesn't mean you should just shrug and accept them.  Getting to much of that opinion in this thread.  I'm quite sure you can develop a game without crunch.

I'll also add this.  I worked at a company for 11 years that had us work 1-3 months straight every year.  Kraken, am I thankful to be done with that.

[EliasDanger]

11 minutes ago, Yellowburn10 said:

I'm kinda surprised this thread isn't at active as I thought it would be. KSP communities elsewhere, on the other hand...

Yeah well, the thread is titled like just another 1.1 complaint thread, followed by bad grammar, so people are probably ignoring this thread. I suggest a retitle. At least fix "comes it as a surprise" please.

[Tiberion]

Unless you are one of the people working or seeking a job from them, there is nothing to "accept"  or "deny" as a community member. Tiny Squad from Mexico isn't going to lead the charge to change the industry, no matter how many angry people post their "outrage" on the forum or reddit or 4chan. I've seen suggestion that nothing ever changes unless there is forum drama here. In my experience, the forum drama has basically never solved anything. The ancient "DLC" drama might count, but i reckon that sort of outrage got much more mainstream "play" and the fallout from that resulted in a communication blackout with the community that lasted almost a year.

Electronic Arts was publicly outed for severe issues with their working environment by a mainstream gaming magazine and dozens upon dozens of articles and followups occurred. It earned them repeated "Worst Company in America" wins. Did it change anything? No. EA made token gestures, had no impact on the industry, and crunchtime/working conditions continue to be a hot button issue well beyond our community.

You have to be realistic about what you can expect to change. Someone said that pressure might make them "alter course" -- to what course? Do we want them to pay the current staff the industry standard? Does the current staff have the industry standard in qualifications (degrees or experience) to earn that pay? Do we want them to hire experienced game devs? Is that a realistic goal for a game that's already shipped and sold a large percentage of its copies? Anyone with the barest of business experience will tell you this will never happen.

 

I think there are realistic goals that we can all agree on. We want them to be more flexible on release deadlines, so that they stop shipping versions to meet marketing needs when there is more QA to be done. We want the awesome people that work on this game are healthy and can live comfortably.

I'm not sure what is going on over on reddit is going to achieve any of that (outside of what r4m0n is saying, but thats getting ignored in lieu of good old fashsioned hand-wringing)

[I_Killed_Jeb]

1 hour ago, DChurchill said:

Before this gets locked, I remember when this went down. It was a big kerfuffle then, but that was what? 2 Years ago? And he's dredging it up now because "the NDA expired"? Someone has a Joolian sized chip on thier shoulder.

I'd be pretty liquided upset too if I were fired the minute I became replaceable all while being paid 2400 bucks a year (!!!!!!)

 

Won't be buying anything from Squad again unless new/corrective information comes to light.

Edited May 5, 2016 by I_Killed_Jeb
i wouldn't be liquided. i don't know how that happened.

[Caelib]

1 hour ago, Tr1gg3r said:

Interesting bedtime reading....

sounds much like any other company in the world, that are trying to increase profits -

long hours

poor pay

not enough staff.

Left to the Devoted few to drag it into an operative state.

Business as usual

Heh, I was just going to post the same thing