Temeter

1.1 is seriously bugged, but comes it as a surprise...

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17 minutes ago, Temeter said:

And this here even more: This is obviously over 2, I don't think anyone here even talked about point 1? Game-design doesn't belong in this thread.

Boy I dunno, the OP and title sure seems to be complaining about game development (how buggy 1.1 is) and then you immediately drug in the other discussion from reddit, one can only assume as a "reason" about the bugginess game development problems.

 

So you, the OP, started a topic about 1 and invoked #2 immediately.

 

So I'm gonna have to disagree.

Edited by Tiberion

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4 minutes ago, Tiberion said:

Boy I dunno, the OP and title sure seems to be complaining about game development (how buggy 1.1 is) and then you immediately drug in the other discussion from reddit, one can only assume as a "reason" about the bugginess game development problems.

 

So you, the OP, started a topic about 1 and invoked #2 immediately.

 

So I'm gonna have to disagree.

Nope, vana's 1) was about critic on game design, while I was talking about the development process. I took that, because the crunch phase was the one thing Squad was openly talking about and 1.1 definitly looked like a crunched patch, with all those hotfixes and interconnected problems.

Your disagreement doesn't change anything about how my post was ment, so idk what that's supposed to mean. Also, releasing an inherently bugged update isn't a good thing. It doesn't bother me that much, was happy about the prerelease, but you gotta be delusional to think 'yay i'm so happy i encountered this bug'. That's not even game design discussion.

 

And yep, crunch phases are a pretty excrementsty thing to do. Only works because you're able to abuse developers over their passion or fear of job loss. Illegal if you'd actually heed the labor lows as they exist in most contries (not sure about mexico).

 

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I don't get why that dude was working for only like 2800 a year or whatever. Was his foot chained to his desk? If you're being forced to work long hours for low pay, aren't there other jobs you can go get? I guarantee just about anything on the job list pays more than 2800 a year. I wanna know why that dude didn't quit if he wasn't making money, and if he knew the place was that bad, how did it come as a surprise when they fired him when his work was done? His story doesn't make sense.

The way I see it, if you're only making 2800 a year, you're an intern. You're going to be treated like crap, that's what happens to interns. When you get fired from a 2800 a year job, that's your bosses doing you a favor. If you're working full time for 2800 a year, that means you're just doing it for the experience. If that's the case, then enjoy the experience. If you don't like the experience, than quit. Right?

Edit: I went back and looked. 2400 a year is what he said he made. What is that, like 50 bucks a week? Why even show up?

Edited by EliasDanger

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2 minutes ago, Temeter said:

Nope, vana's 1) was about critic on game design, while I was talking about the development process

These are the same thing. Or at least the former is is submitting critical feedback on the product you bought, while the latter is usually  an inappropriate extension of that, where you criticize the devs instead of specific things.

Consumers can validly criticize the new features of an iPhone or a car, but if they criticize Apple's HR operations or Ford's design philosophy, they usually get ignored, because its outside of the business/consumer relationship.

Now, those are all things that human beings can hold valid opinions on, and you can even express them. But you shouldn't hold onto the hope that it represents something can Squad should or even CAN address publicly.

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8 minutes ago, Tiberion said:

These are the same thing. Or at least the former is is submitting critical feedback on the product you bought, while the latter is usually  an inappropriate extension of that, where you criticize the devs instead of specific things.

Consumers can validly criticize the new features of an iPhone or a car, but if they criticize Apple's HR operations or Ford's design philosophy, they usually get ignored, because its outside of the business/consumer relationship.

Now, those are all things that human beings can hold valid opinions on, and you can even express them. But you shouldn't hold onto the hope that it represents something can Squad should or even CAN address publicly.

Of course it is a part of the business/consumer relationship. What do you think are environmental/labor/etc protection laws supposed to do? That's the government making sure everything is done well, supposedly in the name of the people. And stuff like Bio products are found everywhere, at least here in germany. Sometimes people do care where the stuff they're getting is from.

And btw, just something aside: Yes, I'm happy to wait a bit longer on updates when that's the price of not doing a crunch phase. Considering that sentiment equal with a witch hunt, or hate campaign, is indeed a bit bizarre to me.

I'm not expecting anything to come out of it, Squad to comment or it, or really anything; I am just putting down my opinion and think that people caring about the games development maybe should know that stuff. That's it, nothing more, nothing less.

Edited by Temeter

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15 minutes ago, Temeter said:
15 minutes ago, Temeter said:

Of course it is a part of the business/consumer relationship.

 

You are describing a business/government relationship there.  They may have to follow governmental regulations, but they do not have to go to their forums and explain their internal affairs to their consumers.  I believe that might be the point he was making.
 

Edited by Kethevin

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4 minutes ago, Kethevin said:

You are describing a business/government relationship there.  They may have to follow governmental regulations, but they do not have to go to their forums and explain their internal affairs to their consumers.  I believe that might be the point he was making.

I'm just not really getting what's the point about even writing that down. It's like making a caveat that the current discussion won't necessarily change the world.

Feels kinda pointless.

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1 minute ago, Temeter said:

I'm just not really getting what's the point about even writing that down. It's like making a caveat that the current discussion won't necessarily change the world.

Feels kinda pointless.

I know the feeling. :D

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While I understand everyone would like an official reaction from Squad, it would be highly inappropriate and unprofessional for a company to publicly discuss their former employees. I personally don't see much point to this thread at the moment... I'll leave it open, and will come back later to see if it gains any purpose. If not, I'll close it then.

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9 minutes ago, KasperVld said:

While I understand everyone would like an official reaction from Squad, it would be highly inappropriate and unprofessional for a company to publically discuss their former employees. I personally don't see much point to this thread at the moment I'll leave it open, and will come back later to see if it gains any purpose. If not, I'll close it then.

Of course they're not gonna answer, that's not the point in the first place. It's a reminder about what's going on behind the scenes, tho.

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I'm not going to comment on what may or may not be going on at Squad.

I'd simply like to point out that KSP, even with all its quirks and glitches, is the most fun piece of software that I ever had the pleasure to own. I respect and I thank everyone who currently is, and/or in the past has been, doing development work for it.

Should it be true that the working conditions at Squad are harsh/bad/unfair, this would only increase my respect for still being able to pull KSP off as it is.

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I didn't watch the video, or read much of the reddit post or all of this thread but I think I got the gist of what happened.

• Guy gets hired on to do a job.
• Guy gets paid to his job as discussed or contracted.
• Guy gets released or fired when *his* job is completed.

Sounds like normal business practice to me. It sucks in my opinion, but its the way things are; Industry Standards. Bring on people to do a job, and get rid of them when no longer needed and/or their job is done. Businesses exist to make money, they're not charities. The software industry is hugely cut-throat, high turn-around, faced paced, and doesn't coddle people. Cant handle the pressure, find a new industry or start your own development company with your own procedures.

I don't look down on Squad for this, its part of the business.

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7 hours ago, Tankman101 said:

That number is either missing a ton of context or is a flat out lie.  If they were really being paid that much, they would be homeless with no way to commute and barely/not at all being able to feed themselves.

EDIT: Also the guy decided to keep working for that pathetic sum.  Part of the blame lands on them for that.

That is US dollars. In Mexico the minimum wage is about $1,000us per year.

5 hours ago, EliasDanger said:

I don't get why that dude was working for only like 2800 a year or whatever. Was his foot chained to his desk? If you're being forced to work long hours for low pay, aren't there other jobs you can go get? I guarantee just about anything on the job list pays more than 2800 a year. I wanna know why that dude didn't quit if he wasn't making money, and if he knew the place was that bad, how did it come as a surprise when they fired him when his work was done? His story doesn't make sense.

The way I see it, if you're only making 2800 a year, you're an intern. You're going to be treated like crap, that's what happens to interns. When you get fired from a 2800 a year job, that's your bosses doing you a favor. If you're working full time for 2800 a year, that means you're just doing it for the experience. If that's the case, then enjoy the experience. If you don't like the experience, than quit. Right?

Edit: I went back and looked. 2400 a year is what he said he made. What is that, like 50 bucks a week? Why even show up?

See above.

Edited by Majorjim

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If you think SQUAD was bad trying to earn money... just wait until people that got married will have their children born, then sucking money from company will go at 110% of normal speed  :wink:

I only hope that KSP is going to get better quality update soon, because for me 1.1+ updates are really terrible.

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11 minutes ago, Darnok said:

If you think SQUAD was bad trying to earn money... just wait until people that got married will have their children born, then sucking money from company will go at 110% of normal speed  :wink:

I only hope that KSP is going to get better quality update soon, because for me 1.1+ updates are really terrible.

The 1.1 onwards updates are more buggy because the game has a brand new engine!

a few issues are caused by Unity 5 and are out with Squad's control.

I just wish that everyone understands the massive problems that a new game engine can cause, and how it can take a while to correct these problems.

Edited by V7 Aerospace

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9 hours ago, Tiberion said:

Tiny Squad from Mexico isn't going to lead the charge to change the industry, no matter how many angry people post their "outrage" on the forum or reddit or 4chan.

I'd say a tiny company from Mexico is the prefect candidate to try this new, and radical form of game development.  None of the baggage of a massive company.

Edited by klgraham1013

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7 hours ago, Temeter said:

This isn't supposed to be a hatepost.

I never said it is?

1 hour ago, Majorjim said:

That is US dollars. In Mexico the minimum wage is about $1,000us per year.

There's the context.  Thanks.

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9 hours ago, Randazzo said:

Oh look, internet drama spawned from childish expectations being shattered by reality.

Yes, let's all accept reality, because change is childish.

I know, first world problems.  Doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for a better world.

7 hours ago, EliasDanger said:

I don't get why that dude was working for only like 2800 a year or whatever. Was his foot chained to his desk? If you're being forced to work long hours for low pay, aren't there other jobs you can go get?

I can speak from personal experience that sometimes there isn't another job you can just get.  Thankfully, I've pulled my self out of that hole, but it did take about a year.

That any job would actually pay that little is the shocking thing.

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3 hours ago, KasperVld said:

While I understand everyone would like an official reaction from Squad, it would be highly inappropriate and unprofessional for a company to publically discuss their former employees. I personally don't see much point to this thread at the moment... I'll leave it open, and will come back later to see if it gains any purpose. If not, I'll close it then.

No point?  Discussing the labor practices of a company on that company's forum isn't a good enough point?  Sorry.  People mean more to me than that.  If Squad, or any other company is mistreating it's employees, there is always a point in shining a light on it.

I'm not saying everything the man posted is true, but I wouldn't doubt if Squad is still working unnecessary crunch because "that's of game development works."

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9 hours ago, Temeter said:

Well, your abrasive, defensive answer makes it look like you can't - or don't want to - deal with reality.

It's pretty common knowledge that working in the games industry isn't the most comfortable place to work in. But, especially concepts like the crunch phase are controversial, having been critizised up to the point that it actually might be counterproductive to the workflow to overwork your developers (duh).

And I'm not expecting to change really anything here, but I still gonna at least point it - and my dislike for it - out. That's a lot better in my book than just attacking people who actually express some criticism of it.

 

-snip-

 

My abrasive, defensive answer was purely in scorn, actually.

As in, I hold this topic in utter contempt.

Don't want any more confusion.

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The accusations might be true, or they might be false. I don't know and to be honest I don't really care. Too many questionable decisions caused me to loose faith a long time ago.
But one can't deny the simple fact the accusations do fit very well with what has, and what has not, been happening over the last few years. And I also understand SQUAD's lack of a solid reply. They can neither confirm or deny what has been said. Confirming it would basically mean suicide. Denying it (or locking this thread without a reply) would only confirm suspicions and provoke conspiracy theories. Only thing they can do is ignore it, muddle along and hope it will pass.

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Just now, Tex_NL said:

 They can neither confirm or deny what has been said. Confirming it would basically mean suicide. Denying it (or locking this thread without a reply) would only confirm suspicions and provoke conspiracy theories. Only thing they can do is ignore it, muddle along and hope it will pass.

Sounds like they've learn't from NASA wrt to the moon story...

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12 hours ago, Randazzo said:

Squad did a great job developing KSP overall. No company will leave all their former employees with warm fuzzies.

As much as I love KSP, I disagree. What we have now is excellent for what is actually complete. The "overall" of KSP isn't close to being complete, and no, they have not done a great job managing it.

If a major developer decided to make a game similar to KSP, it would be done in 2 years and released without major bugs. It would have everything we want in it, better graphics, and be fast to boot. Don't get me wrong... I love KSP and the little green frogmen (this by far is the secret to KSP's success).

Squad being inexperienced in game development isn't the bad thing. The bad thing is they haven't learned yet how to develop. I mean, 1.1.2 was just released and it crashed 20 minutes into my first game. Really?

I imagine the problem afflicting Squad is the same problem that hurts many companies. A small group of people at the top are so petrified of loosing control that they intentionally avoid hiring experienced people.

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5 minutes ago, Pax Kerbana said:

If a major developer decided to make a game similar to KSP, it would be done in 2 years and released without major bugs. It would have everything we want in it, better graphics, and be fast to boot. Don't get me wrong... I love KSP and the little green frogmen (this by far is the secret to KSP's success).

I doubt a major developer would touch a game like KSP. And without major bugs? Come on. Have you played a Bethesda game at launch? They're still fixing major bugs in Fallout 4 and allowed the mod community to fix hundreds in Skyrim.

Edited by DChurchill

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