Temeter

1.1 is seriously bugged, but comes it as a surprise...

Recommended Posts

Gotta love currency conversion.

Mexico Minimum Wage:  $70.10(MEX)/day | $3.92(USD)/day

Per Year:  $18,226(MEX)/year | $1,019.87(USD)/year

His Salary:  $42,890.15(MEX)/year | $2,400(USD)/year

That's above minimum wage, legal, and about right for a small business in Mexico City.

Software development sucks (I'm a dev).  High-stress, high-pressure, long hours.  It is what it is.  You do it becuase you love making the stuff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Temeter said:

You're trying to read his motivations, I'm trying to read what value is there in his claims? :P

I'm sure there is some value to his claims, given corroboration by NovaSilisko. But I've also have had more than one person make statements like that about companies that I've worked for, when my own experience is the exact opposite. So we're back to he-said-she-said and I'm not going to get myself all worked up over someone else's drama. Hence, I am the voice of apathy. :wink:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, Korvath85 said:

Gotta love currency conversion.

Mexico Minimum Wage:  $70.10(MEX)/day | $3.92(USD)/day

Per Year:  $18,226(MEX)/year | $1,019.87(USD)/year

His Salary:  $42,890.15(MEX)/year | $2,400(USD)/year

That's above minimum wage, legal, and about right for a small business in Mexico City.

Software development sucks (I'm a dev).  High-stress, high-pressure, long hours.  It is what it is.  You do it becuase you love making the stuff.

Much depends on where the work was actually done, not where the employer is standing.  I think anyone working for squad from the US/Canada/Europe should take a close look at their local minimum wage laws.  They cannot be waved away just because the employer is elsewhere.  Many a foreign employer has been bitten by this when running employees in the US.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Sandworm said:

Much depends on where the work was actually done, not where the employer is standing.  I think anyone working for squad from the US/Canada/Europe should take a close look at their local minimum wage laws.  They cannot be waved away just because the employer is elsewhere.  Many a foreign employer has been bitten by this when running employees in the US.

That makes sense. Otherwise US companies that want to skirt minimum wages would simply set up a foreign straw man company, make everyone work directly for that company and pay out lower wages.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

That makes sense. Otherwise US companies that want to skirt minimum wages would simply set up a foreign straw man company, make everyone work directly for that company and pay out lower wages.

Exactly.  And it prevents foreign companies from sending cheap workers into the US/canada ... or even between states/provinces that have different wage rules.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Sandworm said:

Much depends on where the work was actually done, not where the employer is standing.  I think anyone working for squad from the US/Canada/Europe should take a close look at their local minimum wage laws.  They cannot be waved away just because the employer is elsewhere.  Many a foreign employer has been bitten by this when running employees in the US.

That happens though with 1099 type contractors. I was once offered a contract for $500 to build an application. Would have taken around 120 hours, less than $5 an hour. Completely legal, and well below wage standards. Flat fee contracts are a different beast, and it's easy to get screwed. But it's a very common thing. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

If a major developer decided to make a game similar to KSP, it would be done in 2 years and released without major bugs. 

I find this assertion difficult to credit. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To me this sounds like the all to familiar 'management'/'expert' conflict.

i suspect a developer coming into the company is shocked that the game actually works, and management don't care about this.. as usual.

All they see is the bottom line.. which is OK, else the company would go under.

The poor developer is now under enormous pressure to try sort out the mess, being paid minimal wages.. the dev is soon not a happy chappy.

Management still don't care about this.. ok maybe a little, but they've made promises like a politician and the public are waiting, with cash in hand.

High staff turnover... resulting in no real cohesive, contiguous development plan.. and the wheels start falling off.

Besides.. no-one at the office knows what going on.. but hey we show happy faces in the window... har har!!

 

Squad will have to re-assess their strategy. If they don't get off level-1 soon, after so many bug infested re-iterations , someone will push a better working product onto the market, as mentioned !!

The key feature about this whole scenario .. is the inability to recognise that it's near impossible to make multiplatform software bug-free. This was proven decades ago, but naivety reigns supreme here and it's about a history lesson ignored to squads own peril. What seemed to promise multi-platform utopia, has resulted in the code-devil in disguise - learn the hard way, neh!!

 

Edited by ColKlonk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, ColKlonk said:

If they don't get off level-1 soon, after so many bug infested re-iterations , someone will push a better working product onto the market, as mentioned !!

It's just a matter of time.

 

If Squad is really more interested in things other than game development, maybe the best thing would actually be if somebody bought KSP from them and then got serious about taking it to the next step. I know for my part that  I'm more than ready to pay more money if it will get me a program that begins to do all the things that are possible in this environment.

Edited by herbal space program

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know, but it seems kinda suspicious that SQUAD has remained silent over this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Laythe Dweller said:

I don't know, but it seems kinda suspicious that SQUAD has remained silent over this.

 

14 hours ago, KasperVld said:

While I understand everyone would like an official reaction from Squad, it would be highly inappropriate and unprofessional for a company to publicly discuss their former employees. I personally don't see much point to this thread at the moment... I'll leave it open, and will come back later to see if it gains any purpose. If not, I'll close it then.

 

This will most likely be closed, as usual. Although I don't think that closing an active "pointless" thread is fair, especially when the thread doesn't break any rules.

Edited by Aperture Science

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Laythe Dweller said:

I don't know, but it seems kinda suspicious that SQUAD has remained silent over this.

Most of them are on vacation.  Lets at least give them some time off.  They can respond when they're back to work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, klgraham1013 said:

Most of them are on vacation.  Lets at least give them some time off.  They can respond when they're back to work.

Or ... talk about it now because as soon as they get back the axe will fall.  Perhaps this is the one window where we won't have to go to 4chan or somethingawful to discuss these issues.

Edited by Sandworm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Sandworm said:

Or ... talk about it now because as soon as they get back the axe will fall.

Seeing as my opinion revolves around developers actually having time off, I can't fairly pull them back to work to address this.  It's sort of a catch 22 in this case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Laythe Dweller said:

I don't know, but it seems kinda suspicious that SQUAD has remained silent over this.

Why?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Laythe Dweller said:

I don't know, but it seems kinda suspicious that SQUAD has remained silent over this.

Well, they ARE on vacation atm.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Kethevin said:

Why?

Why? Shouldn't it be obvious? They have just been accused of mistreating employees by a former developer, and the statement has even been backed up by Nova, and yet they remain silent over the issue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Laythe Dweller said:

Why? Shouldn't it be obvious? They have just been accused of mistreating employees by a former developer, and the statement has even been backed up by Nova, and yet they remain silent over the issue.

They do not owe us an explanation.  It is inappropriate for a business to discuss their internal affairs, especially on an internet forum, even their own.  They've already explained that, on page three of this thread.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, ColKlonk said:

Squad will have to re-assess their strategy. If they don't get off level-1 soon, after so many bug infested re-iterations , someone will push a better working product onto the market, as mentioned !!

So what?  Squad has already made oodles of cash off KSP, and they'll make more before anyone else can put out a viable competitor program by being on console.  Even "Children of a Dead Earth" can't really compete or be seen as a competitor because it is still in early development and deals with different subject matter.  Show me any game either currently out or in development that comes close to KSP's core concepts (sandbox exploration in a mostly-realistic space simulation using player-created craft).

KSP is going to rake in a bunch more money on console before any competitor gets close to putting out another product.  By the time there is a competitor, and I assure you I certainly hope we see competitors that go even further into realism than Squad will ever dare touch (now that there's a real market for these sorts of games), Squad will be on their way out Scrooge-McDuck style.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow... I always assumed squad did have a small amount of corporate shadyness as all companies tend to get once they grow, but I never expected this. Im just... wow. To all of the 'low grade' employees working at squad (Including the apparentlty worked to death C7), I give my condolences. And to the executives and whomever else can have a significant influence around squad, you've lost virtually all respect from me.

It's a shame that such a good game comes from this kind of a company.

Edited by nosirrbro

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, N_Danger said:

 Remember this is also Mexico. As someone pointed out up thread the minimum wage in Mexico is 1000$ per year. And the cost of living is lower also, many United States citizens who are retirees move there to make the retirement checks go further.

I hadn't seen that when i posted, but this guy is still not getting my pitty. He's calling out his wages in USD, which is irrelevant if he's not being paid in the US. his wages need to be compared to the buying power they get where he is getting paid, in the currency he is getting paid. I have no idea what $2400, or $1000 a year buys in mexico, the best i could compare it to is say him getting 2.4x the minimum wage. Where I live that would get you ~$24 an hour(california). Its not big money, but it's livable. its nearly two and a half times minimum wage, in california that would be around $50,000 a year. I don't know how minimum wage in the US compares to mexico, but  my whole point is that he's not giving an accurate picture by using one currency that makes your pay look pathetically low.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's hard to comment here without knowing the full story.

All our info comes from a former employee who is clearly saltier than the Dead Sea, posted in one of the more shady corners of the Internet. He is quite likely biased, and there's quite possibly a bit more to it. That being said, I can believe much of what he claims. I'm sure Squad overworks its employees at times, and I know they do some censoring of the community. Good PR sells. However, the fact that this thread remains open tells me that they aren't as iron-fisted as he claims. 

The wage issue requires a bit of context, as cost of living in Mexico is much lower than in the U.S. I highly doubt they are paying their international employees substandard wages; as mentioned above, most governments come down on that like a sack of bricks. Squad would have a lot to lose for little gain there, especially with KSP doing so well. 

Squad has an obligation to be profitable. I get that. Sometimes that means putting undue stress on workers, which sucks, but without somebody shelling out the dough to develop and distribute KSP, it would've died 5 years ago on Harv's computer. That doesn't justify treating your employees poorly, but everything PD claims Squad has done seems legal, and typical for the industry.

Squad isn't some magical utopia. They're a company like all the rest, and sometimes companies do crappy things.

Money is the root of all evil. That is all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Vanamonde said:

I find this assertion difficult to credit. 

-Skyrim took 3 years.
-Minecraft was done by less than five people in two years to get to 1.0
-Spore took 4 years from initial gameplay to release.
-Space Engineers took 2 years to get to where the devs felt comfortable enough to move on.
-GTA V, the most expensive game made to-date, took only 5 years.

-Universe Sandbox took five people 4 years.

The standard for both triple A and indies seems to be about a three-five year dev cycle, barring resets and core concept changes. Considering there is literally no story, plot, voice acting, or worldbuilding, and the devs have literally PURCHASED mods from the community to add to the game... I don't have any problem believing this assertion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I usually don't read all the posts on such a large thread, but in this I made an exception because I think it is worth it.

I also work in IT business since early 2000's and knowing enough of my local market I think I need to point some subjects.

1.- I read some comparison between minimum wages and what PDtv claims to have earned. I must point that minimum wages are exactly that. I don't think that it is the fair amount to pay to such skilled labor. After all, you don't grow a programmer (a good one or a mediocre one) on a trees. Programming it's a hard earned skill, and I think that is a skill which deserves to be recognized by a good salary and a good work environment.

 

2.-

5 hours ago, Kethevin said:

They do not owe us an explanation.  It is inappropriate for a business to discuss their internal affairs, especially on an internet forum, even their own.  They've already explained that, on page three of this thread.

I understand what Kethevin means here, but what's "inapropiate for a business" it's usually unethic also. I asume that all people here in KSP community are people of good will. If we are so, they DO owe us an explanation... because (at least the way I see it) they are making fellow programmers feel bad. If you made a mistake and your way of making up that mistake is loading people with tasks and stress I will retire my support from you.

 

3.-And last. I read many times "companies need to be profitable" and "business do that".

On 5/5/2016 at 10:44 PM, Caelib said:

 

On 4/5/2016 at 8:45 PM, Tr1gg3r said:

Interesting bedtime reading....

sounds much like any other company in the world, that are trying to increase profits -

long hours

poor pay

not enough staff.

Left to the Devoted few to drag it into an operative state.

Business as usual :wink:

Heh, I was just going to post the same thing :D

 

This is what I mean. I understand that we need to be realistic about work market. But I guess that it's time we don't accept that anymore like a natural law. Business need to be human driven. Business are made by people for people. Seeing that this is so naturalized in our speech it just make me sad. I guess we have the world we made.

A good product from a bad company is not good at all...

 

Peace and be good

Edited by ezequielandrush

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.