[1.1.2] TAC - Life Support - Dev Thread

[SkyRender]

Excellent, the best life support mod lives on!

[Captain Cornhole]

I gotta say thanks everyone.  I built a huge ass space station around kerbin, then sent up rocket pods and flew it into orbit around minmus as a fuel station for the mining base that I am about to land on minmus.  Then I sent up a ton of disposable life support pods that I can crash after they are used up, attached them to my refueling station and then came the update.  I haven't been able to play on my main file since the update for fear of losing my refueling station that took me a long time to build and position orbiting minmus.  Thank you very much for saving me hours of work

[Table]

This works with TAC-LS Retexture right?

[charliepryor]

At this time, with USI Life Support and Kolonization, It's technically possible to have 100% self-sufficient surface bases with mining, science, and all that. Life Support resources can feasibly keep up with needs forever. - Is this going to be possible with TAC LS? I much prefer TACLS for sure, and I'm at a critical point in my play-through where I have to commit to a life support mod (because parts on vehicles). The question really is, can 100% efficiency be possible with the additional resources that are needing to be paid attention to in TAC LS? Thanks for your time, and for everything you all are doing for us lowly end-users who absolutely love playing KSP.

[Ixonal]

Wishin you luck with the mod. Always rough at first with someone else's code.

When you get the build stable, will you be updating CKAN?

[SmarterThanMe]

56 minutes ago, Ixonal said:

Wishin you luck with the mod. Always rough at first with someone else's code.

In my distant past, I used to do a lot of web design work. Took over a website with extensively commented code, storyboards, sketches, layouts, e-mail chains... In Indonesian. The client, whose English was also limited, wanted me to relaunch the website according to the groundwork that the previous guy had already started. Selamat pagi, Pak! Saya ikanmas gila.

Sorry, off topic I know.

[danfarnsy]

6 hours ago, Table said:

This works with TAC-LS Retexture right?

I haven't tested it yet, but I believe it should. Care to report back if it works?
 

5 hours ago, charliepryor said:

Life Support resources can feasibly keep up with needs forever. - Is this going to be possible with TAC LS?

In TAC-LS by itself, like with USI-LS by itself, it's not possible to have complete self sufficiency. It requires some additional mods to do so. I don't have a list of the mods that do this with TAC-LS, but I know UKS/MKS fully supports TAC-LS. The only additional requirement (that I'm aware of) is that USI parts which store "supplies" aren't configured to store TAC-LS resources, so you also have to bring TAC-LS parts for storing food, water, oxygen, etc.

1 hour ago, Ixonal said:

Wishin you luck with the mod. Always rough at first with someone else's code.

When you get the build stable, will you be updating CKAN?

It's even rougher when you're using someone else's code to learn C#.  My primary qualifications for taking the lead on this mod are an ability to learn quickly, insufficient fear of screwing it all up, and a bit of free time to do it.

Regarding CKAN, yes. That's in the works if it's not already up.

36 minutes ago, SmarterThanMe said:

In my distant past, I used to do a lot of web design work. Took over a website with extensively commented code, storyboards, sketches, layouts, e-mail chains... In Indonesian. The client, whose English was also limited, wanted me to relaunch the website according to the groundwork that the previous guy had already started. Selamat pagi, Pak! Saya ikanmas gila.

Sorry, off topic I know.

Off topic but hilarious. That reminds me of my own off topic story: a few years ago the website for my favorite Chinese takeout place was defaced by some Indonesian script kiddies. I call them that because they're the type of poor sods who go around scanning ports looking for known vulnerabilities and then declare how awesome they are when they take down a website as if it was some sort of triumph. So I found their IRC channel, congratulated them on their success, and asked them if they could put it back because, really, I just wanted some pork lo mein. It turned out their English was limited to crude comments about my mother.

[CoriW]

9 hours ago, charliepryor said:

At this time, with USI Life Support and Kolonization, It's technically possible to have 100% self-sufficient surface bases with mining, science, and all that. Life Support resources can feasibly keep up with needs forever. - Is this going to be possible with TAC LS? I much prefer TACLS for sure, and I'm at a critical point in my play-through where I have to commit to a life support mod (because parts on vehicles). The question really is, can 100% efficiency be possible with the additional resources that are needing to be paid attention to in TAC LS? Thanks for your time, and for everything you all are doing for us lowly end-users who absolutely love playing KSP.

Planetary Base Systems has extensive support for TAC LS. I've gone ahead and linked it below, but I'll also link the documentation HERE so that you can see the specifics, aside from that, the parts have a nice stock-alike feel to them as well.

 

[Cornholio]

I totally respect the 'let's talk about changes/suggestions after stable release', but just want to quietly add to the list that 3.75m parts are the norm for interplanetary ships nowadays.  If you are staying with the inline parts, could we have a part for that size also?

 

Thanks for taking your time and effort to pick this mod up for the rest of us.

[danfarnsy]

29 minutes ago, Cornholio said:

just want to quietly add to the list that 3.75m parts are the norm for interplanetary ships nowadays

Good point. I usually got around that with TweakScale and Procedural Parts, but your request is reasonable. It would have to come with the part overhaul I've been talking about, as adding more parts to our already cumbersome and redundant list wouldn't be cool.

[charliepryor]

6 hours ago, CoriW said:

Planetary Base Systems has extensive support for TAC LS. I've gone ahead and linked it below, but I'll also link the documentation HERE so that you can see the specifics, aside from that, the parts have a nice stock-alike feel to them as well.

 

Thanks for that. I've been playing with that installed. The problem seems to usually be achieving 100% efficiency. Even with, say, food generation at the base, the efficiency that comes from growing things or converting waste and water waste back to something usable isn't 100%, meaning eventually, things run out. In USI for example, supplies turn to mulch, which is useful for hydroponics and such... but it's only 50% efficient, unless I have fertilizer... in which case it's far more efficient, but still not 100% - and fertilizer isn't available as something that can be produced planetside. It has to be shipped from Kerbin... which isn't self-sufficient. It's only with mining a source of water/etc to help the crops can I supplement fertilizer and produce enough of a third resource to offset consumption and achieve efficiency at very high cost - which is fine, as long as it's possible.

I was generally pointing at whether or not such a thing would be possible with TAC LS - that is, with the usage of USI Kolonization for example, and with Planetary Base Systems, is 100% efficiency doable, given money being no object (which it will be in my career, but hypothetical). Just knowing it's possible with USI LS is the only reason I use that... I would prefer TAC because I find the lack of something as simple as "air" being considered troubling in my attempts to make things a bit more realistic.

Appreciate your time and patience with my question.

[danfarnsy]

25 minutes ago, charliepryor said:

and fertilizer isn't available as something that can be produced planetside. It has to be shipped from Kerbin...

I thought fertilizer could be produced with gypsum or hydrates or some other such USI resource with some special ISRU converter, which then allows you to tie that production into TACLS resources. Since the fertilizer bit is an MKS mechanic instead of TACLS, I'd suggest looking in the MKS thread to confirm or deny whether I'm blowing smoke.

[charliepryor]

7 minutes ago, danfarnsy said:

I thought fertilizer could be produced with gypsum or hydrates or some other such USI resource with some special ISRU converter, which then allows you to tie that production into TACLS resources. Since the fertilizer bit is an MKS mechanic instead of TACLS, I'd suggest looking in the MKS thread to confirm or deny whether I'm blowing smoke.

I may be missing something here in my testing here. Still new to me. I'll definitely look there. - I think I may give TAC a try here once it's confirmed stable and reliable with 1.1.2 (not just a "provisional" release as it says in the first post). I'm not sure what provisional really means... but for the sake of not screwing my young youtube series for now, I'll just sit eagerly on the sidelines and study it all in sandbox in spare time.

Thanks so much for providing life support for this mod.

[Akira_R]

2 hours ago, charliepryor said:

Thanks for that. I've been playing with that installed. The problem seems to usually be achieving 100% efficiency. Even with, say, food generation at the base, the efficiency that comes from growing things or converting waste and water waste back to something usable isn't 100%, meaning eventually, things run out. In USI for example, supplies turn to mulch, which is useful for hydroponics and such... but it's only 50% efficient, unless I have fertilizer... in which case it's far more efficient, but still not 100% - and fertilizer isn't available as something that can be produced planetside. It has to be shipped from Kerbin... which isn't self-sufficient. It's only with mining a source of water/etc to help the crops can I supplement fertilizer and produce enough of a third resource to offset consumption and achieve efficiency at very high cost - which is fine, as long as it's possible.

I was generally pointing at whether or not such a thing would be possible with TAC LS - that is, with the usage of USI Kolonization for example, and with Planetary Base Systems, is 100% efficiency doable, given money being no object (which it will be in my career, but hypothetical). Just knowing it's possible with USI LS is the only reason I use that... I would prefer TAC because I find the lack of something as simple as "air" being considered troubling in my attempts to make things a bit more realistic.

Appreciate your time and patience with my question.

Technically this really isn't the thread to be asking these questions, TACLS provides a life support framework, other mods can then take up the reigns of providing insitu options for life support resources.

USI MKS/UKS provide support for TACLS if it is installed, and it used to be possible to achieve a 100% self sufficient outpost, it requires a lot of work but it could be done, however I am unaware if this is still the case. But that is a question for the USI thread.

[Bit Fiddler]

If the Biomass mod would update to keep in line it is the perfect companion to TAC.   It add a very realistic way to make a 100% sustainable base.  it deals with green houses using the waste and waste water for your hydroponics etc.  it also has parts for converting Hydrogen and oxygen and Carbon etc. into fuels and such.  it has not been updated in a while, but maybe a poke from the devs here could revive their interest in updating.

 

[danfarnsy]

8 hours ago, charliepryor said:

I'm not sure what provisional really means...

My mistake! I grew up in a wonky household, and sometimes I don't realize I'm talking like an academic wonk. "Provisional" here was unnecessary and confusing (I'll go edit the OP). The release (0.11.3) in the OP is the official release. The next release will have a thread in the Add-on Releases forum, will condense two .dll files into one, and include support for Deep Freeze. If your game is working now with TAC-LS, nothing should break.

The reason I'll have two separate threads for this mod is so we can keep support questions in the release thread, while this thread is intended to discuss development issues. If having two threads turns out to be pointless, we'll adjust.

[charliepryor]

6 hours ago, Akira_R said:

Technically this really isn't the thread to be asking these questions, TACLS provides a life support framework, other mods can then take up the reigns of providing insitu options for life support resources.

USI MKS/UKS provide support for TACLS if it is installed, and it used to be possible to achieve a 100% self sufficient outpost, it requires a lot of work but it could be done, however I am unaware if this is still the case. But that is a question for the USI thread.

I'll ask around over there then, thanks.

33 minutes ago, danfarnsy said:

My mistake! I grew up in a wonky household, and sometimes I don't realize I'm talking like an academic wonk. "Provisional" here was unnecessary and confusing (I'll go edit the OP). The release (0.11.3) in the OP is the official release. The next release will have a thread in the Add-on Releases forum, will condense two .dll files into one, and include support for Deep Freeze. If your game is working now with TAC-LS, nothing should break.

The reason I'll have two separate threads for this mod is so we can keep support questions in the release thread, while this thread is intended to discuss development issues. If having two threads turns out to be pointless, we'll adjust.

Sorry, I know what the actual word "provisional" means, I simply wasn't sure as to the extent of compatibility to expect from something marked as provisional. I have a better understanding now. I think I'll actually try and use TAC for this super-ambitious playthrough. Thanks.

[N_Molson]

Excellent mod, one of my favorites. Thanks !

[SpacedInvader]

Going to add that I'm excited to see this making the transition to 1.1.x, being my favorite life support mod and all. That said, I've already run into a bug in that background processing of EC apparently isn't functional in the provisional build. I've got a huge number of mods, so I've yet to determine if the issue is with TACLS or with a mod conflict, but still something to be aware of.

[ShotgunNinja]

@SpacedInvader TAC-LS doesn't simulate EC consumption in background, the reason for this is simply that you can't consume something in background without also simulating its production, or else Kerbals will just die. You can find the same identical design decision in many if not all life support mods.

[SpacedInvader]

2 hours ago, ShotgunNinja said:

@SpacedInvader TAC-LS doesn't simulate EC consumption in background, the reason for this is simply that you can't consume something in background without also simulating its production, or else Kerbals will just die. You can find the same identical design decision in many if not all life support mods.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is a newish (within the last 12 months since I last played) development. I clearly remember getting visual indications that my craft's EC consumption and production was working while I wasn't focused on it and warnings when it became too low / ran out. 

In the new system, how does TACLS track the power output of your vessel to determine if your kerbals are alive or dead? Does this same method carry over to the other consumables since they are all able to be produced as well as consumed?

EDIT: I ask this last part because if it is not background processing the rates, it is also not polling the craft for its current status, allowing all rates to decline without any sort of warning, and when the information is checked, it says its last polled when I last visited the ship.

Edited May 10, 2016 by SpacedInvader

[Valkyria90]

Happy to see this mod active again I'm trying it out now, and I have an issue that the Life Support Monitoring window is empty, even when I have kerbals on board, and they seem to not consume any resources while on board the vessle. Is this a common issue, or is it a conflict with one of my other mods? 

[SpacedInvader]

I finally had a chance to test TACLS installed as the only mod (with MM at least) and I'm seeing the same behavoir. The info window doesn't update correctly, but it appears that its not really relevant as the contents of the craft take precedence. I launched a small craft with solar panels and a year's supply of consumables and then fast forwarded until the EC monitor had shown -1 day... plenty of time to kill a kerbal, but jeb was alive and kicking just fine, so at least it seems to be an issue with the info window and not the underlying process.

[Valkyria90]

1 hour ago, Valkyria90 said:

Happy to see this mod active again I'm trying it out now, and I have an issue that the Life Support Monitoring window is empty, even when I have kerbals on board, and they seem to not consume any resources while on board the vessle. Is this a common issue, or is it a conflict with one of my other mods? 

Ok, I got it to work finally.

I used this mod for a bit a year ago, and I cannot remember this issue;

Do I have to keep my focus on my space station/planetary base in order for all the converters to work? I have food / oxygen etc for 100 days, but I have enough waste and waste water etc to make it last for at least 500 days, but then I have to keep looking at the station to make this work. And it has a really slow conversion rate, so is there any way to make my base self sustaining without having to look at it?

[danfarnsy]

4 hours ago, SpacedInvader said:

Correct me if I'm wrong,

You are wrong.  The old behavior was identical to how it is now. It displays an estimate of the time remaining based on the EC that was in the batteries when you last had the vessel loaded, and it never effectively simulated background consumption because, as @ShotgunNinja said, it didn't simulate background EC production. The timer doesn't know that. But it didn't know it before, either. It's a longstanding issue that's on my list of things to address (see OP for development plans).