Mobile Processing Lab is OP

[FullMetalMachinist]

49 minutes ago, Veeltch said:

The whole conception of science points is ridiculous and needs to change. I would be happy if that and the tech tree were entirely gone.

I know this isn't the suggestions forum, but I'm curious what you would want in it's place? 

[LameLefty]

For those who want the tech tree gone, we already have it. It's called "sandbox" and it's all we had until what, 0.23 or so?

[Sandworm]

14 minutes ago, LameLefty said:

For those who want the tech tree gone, we already have it. It's called "sandbox" and it's all we had until what, 0.23 or so?

Not really.  Sandbox is not simply KSP without the tech tree.  I cannot stand career mode and instead play science-only.  That's great, but I often would like other aspects of career such as pilot skill levels or building upgrades.  Frankly, I get a little insulted when I click on buildings that are "closed".  I want them open.  I just don't want to grind contracts all day.  So I understand someone wanting to play career without the tech tree.  Maybe he wants the challenge of fulfilling contracts without the bother of grinding out the tree.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Sandworm

[regex]

During the pre-release I found that starting with enough science to unlock the first tier of R&D nodes (1510?) and setting my science returns to 50% was a fairly good starting point for actual career.  I put a science lab around Minmus and dropped some Minmus science from two landings into it, was still researching that science when I put a tug around Jool with a lander for Bop and Pol.  Sure, I could have scummed the Mun and Minmus for science and stuffed them in a few labs but that's a boring way to play the game.  In fact, the Mun and Minmus bore the crap out of me at this point, I only land there to finish the initial explore contracts and get the sweet lucre.

[cantab]

When I used the Mobile Processing Lab on my Mun station, at first I thought the same, it seemed rather OP. But then I thought about it a bit more, and considered what I'd put "in":

• Sent the station to Mun orbit. Quite a heavy thing too since it had a half-orange tank for refuelling stuff.
• Sent a lander to dock with the station. Rendezvous and docking is old hat for me, but it is one of the more advanced skills KSP players can learn.
• Sent a crew ship out, another docking with the station. Sent three more during the station operations, though some of the flights were for not-strictly-needed crew rotations.
• Sent a solar array, which was about a hundred OX-STATS on some girder segments, because the MPL is an electricity hog and I had no better solar panels.
• Sent a replacement solar array when I'd unlocked better panels, because the first one lagged like mad. Botched the transfer and it was out of fuel with a Mun encounter established. Flew one of the crew ships out to rendezvous with the solar array - which was on an inclined hyperbolic trajectory mind you - and bring it back to the station.
• Flew four Mun landings to different biomes, and one aborted attempt. Again, a Mun landing is somewhat routine for me but it is one of the major KSP skills.
• Stranded a Kerbal on the Mun (by jetpacking to the top of a cliff and running out of EVA fuel) and rescued them.

Considering all that, I don't think the science gain was so OP. It wasn't majorly out of line with the rewards from some of the other complex missions I was running, such as Scansat scans and probe landings on all the moons of NewHorizons!Jool and Titanus.

And like others have said, sure I could have run more Mun landings, but it's way more fun to do more varied missions.

Edited May 9, 2016 by cantab

[RocketBlam]

13 hours ago, Draco T stand-up guy said:

Nope, install ForScience and then take a lander to Minmus with one science jr, one goo, one tmp, one pressure, one scientist and one pilot. Visit two biomes to gather science and don't transmit any of it (not that you could - the batteries aren't good enough) and when you return to Kerbin get 1600 science. Yes, that is what I got from one trip.

There's a huge amount of science in the game and I suspect that most people are missing most of it. I doubt if people have actually got the time to actually process all of it. Besides, you can probably fill out the entire tech tree without the processing.

I feel that that mod takes out a large part of the game but I also think that Squad went a little bit overboard in sheer tedium of gathering all that science.

If we include mods, anything is possible. I'm talking about stock.

[James Kerman]

I used it when I first started playing KSP however I don't use it anymore because though I feel it isn't OP, for me it limits my reach in the Kerbol system - When I used the Lab I kept waiting to go interplanetary but felt the need to unlock ever more nodes (for tech that makes it easier) and really, doing missions with less than optimal parts makes me a better player.  Also career is boring for me once the tech tree is finished, It's really just sandbox at that point.

[magnemoe]

Do not see the problem, the lab is heavy, sending an lander with MK1 pod with scientist and the basic instruments, 360 fuel will let you sample all but the polar biome on Minmus. 
Unlock rest of the science instruments and wheels and send an rover to Mun, two landings give data from 10 biomes, if this don't unlock the rest an follow up mission to Minmus and the reminding biomes on Mun should solve this nicely. 

[Wjolcz]

6 hours ago, FullMetalMachinist said:

I know this isn't the suggestions forum, but I'm curious what you would want in it's place? 

Something that somehow resembles real life R&D

 

[Streetwind]

The MPL isn't so bad... it's just one among four potential sources of infinite science points in the game, all of which are intentional. In fact, all three currency types can be optained in infinite amounts, and converted freely into one another, so long as you keep playing. The MPL merely makes it easier than other methods, due to its internal x5 multiplier (which is effectively a x6.25 multiplier when the lab is filled with science from the SoI it is currently in).

However, remember that those multipliers are configurable per MM patch, like pretty much everythign else in the game. So if you don't like it, you're literally a minute away from fixing it yourself

 

And plus, there's potential for some highly unusual gameplay there. I've previously pondered a career run where I am not allowed by houserule to transmit or recover any science at all, and must instead use the MPL alone to generate science. Likely with the multiplier reduced to x1.

Illogical and contrived? Yes, sure. But something refreshingly different. That's what houserules are there for, after all   The main reason why I haven't done it yet is that I'm not sure how to handle the start until the MPL becomes available. Just moving it to the starter node alone doesn't solve the problem, since it's a large and heavy 2.5m part.

 

[Stoney3K]

Well, the OP-ness of the MPL comes mostly from the fact that time warping can be done in KSP without a penalty. So you can keep your Kerbals churning away at your science data forever, and keep the lab topped up with science experiments once in a while, without a lot of additional costs.

Using the lab becomes a lot more challenging when there is a life support mod in play. No more warping ahead for a few months to get all the work done.

[Warzouz]

I remember reading somewhere from squad that the MPL was changed in 1.0 to be an alternative way to get science instead of grinding it from science experiments. This would help players who don't want do land several times on the Mun and Minmus.

Technically it's not OP. It's just an alternative you can use if you want to.

In my career game, I use the MPL to generate cash or reputation when I unlock nearly all the tech tree. I add it to all my space station for RP.

EDIT : if you don't like the tech tree, just edit the save file and add 20000 science points. You can unlock everything and still get science from experiments.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Warzouz

[Streetwind]

35 minutes ago, Warzouz said:

EDIT : if you don't like the tech tree, just edit the save file and add 20000 science points. You can unlock everything and still get science from experiments.

The extended cheat menu (hold down alt for 5+ seconds while the debug menu is already open) has a one-button solution for unlocking the whole tree, even if the R&D facility is still tier 1. So no need to edit the savefile to give yourself funds and science points and manually click through everything

[Leeman]

Yea I agree with the OP on one side.. The Mobile Processing Lab seems to be unbalanced however fair points were made in the following posts.

I started out in my first run of KSP.. Brought a Mobile Processing Lab to Minmus with 2 Star 3 Scientists (It is easier for me to get them to level three than dock vessels in Orbit / Hop from Biome to Biome :D) and realised after a bit.. Wait a minute.. This just sits there and generates a  sh... ton  of science? Okay.. I just left it there.. I still have the Lab sitting on Minmus.. full of science (not enough fuel to get back to Kerbin) and... thats it..  

 

So whats my point that I try to do here? If you believe it to be "Overpowered" and don't like it.. Just simply don't use it.. I have nearly unlocked all the techtree yet I only visited two Biomes on Minmus and one Biome on the moon and only orbital science of Kerbin. So it looks like to me, that you can fill up the tech tree completely or at least quite far without interplanetary travels and without the Mobile Processing Lab so in the end.. All fair game again

Edited May 9, 2016 by Leeman

[mk1980]

i view the labs as a convenience feature. the multiplier is x5 (as far as i know), so instead of doing 20 landings in 20 biomes, you just land in a handful of biomes and process the data for similar end results.

of course you can use them to create more research points than intended (actually you can create infinite points if you choose to do so), but that's a decision you make. I don't think the game needs more "handholding". it's ultimately a sandbox game - even in career or science game modes. it's up to the player to use (or not use) features that make it too easy for their taste.

[RW-1]

I had a different issue trying it out ...

True, lately I have began using the Lab as soon as I unlocked it to maximize science returns, sent one into kerbin orbit as part of KS1, to receive science data from returning ships, and one as part of a minmus lander.

The minmus lander worked great, in the end I had one biome, with about 453 science processed from that data, only issue was one of power.

With the amount of batt's I placed and solar panels (with what I had available at that time, and not taking that into consideration),

I couldn't complete the transmission  Fun huh?

So, with the eventual plan to recover it (it had a heat shield and attached mk2 capsule, drogues and chutes, I had to bring it bak to recover the science hehehe ...

Edited May 9, 2016 by RW-1

[Waxing_Kibbous]

13 hours ago, Veeltch said:

The whole conception of science points is ridiculous and needs to change. I would be happy if that and the tech tree were entirely gone.

 

[Terwin]

The only part of the MPL I get much use out of before I have more than enough science to unlock the stock tech tree is the ability to store as many duplicates as you like of a given experiment.

I am more than a bit OCD, so visiting every biome on the Mun and Minmus is something I generally do as a matter of course and the MPL lets me get those last few fractions of a point of science without an extra mission or two.

In my first few games I did not even time-warp for interplanetary trips, I kept taking Kerbin SOi contracts and completing them while waiting for my Duna ship to arrive.(I have gotten better about this, otherwise I would never have gotten to Dres, Jool, Eeloo, and back)

In my current (started in 1.1, now in 1.1.2) game, I have 2 MPLs, both loaded for station contracts, the first one on it's way back to Kerbin, and the second currently trying to rescue the second of 3 scientists from Munar orbit.(it launched with no scientists on board, just an engineer in the MPL for restoring experiments before my first scientist rescue).  As that ship is my first with ISRU, it will be visiting every unvisited Mun biome, Every unvisited Minmus biome, and slipping out to the Kerbol SOI to give me my first 3 star kerbals(6 rescues and 2 previously rescued kerbals) before heading back to the barn.  Even fully loaded, I am expecting less than a hundred science from the MPL processing, but thousands from the MPL storage capacity(this is also my first ship with a negative gravoli detector, so lots and lots of science to be gathered).

The only reason I don't have the entire tech tree unlocked just from the Kerbin SOI is because I use the community tech tree, and while I may have just about all the nodes with parts in them unlocked before I go interplanetary, life support concerns are usually the only thing that keep me from spamming all available biomes.(but now that USI-LS has large fertilizer canisters, I may have more spamming ability)

 

 

[justidutch]

I suppose if your endgame is to fill out the tech tree, then yes using the MPL in a normal-mode career would be way overpowered.  But there's difficulty sliders.  I'm playing a career at 40% returns, and really enjoying it.  I suppose I could still fill out the entire tree only visiting the Kerbin moons, but I'm too anxious (and get contracts) to explore the planets.  Also, my endgame is to put a base on the surface of every body, a station around each one also, with full ISRU capabilities in each system.  That is going to take a whole pile of $$, which I will need to make largely by converting science to funds.  So, for me, the MPL seems to be right where it needs to be, in terms of the science it generates.

[Wjolcz]

3 hours ago, Waxing_Kibbous said:

 

Yeah, thanks, but that's nowhere close to what I'd like to see in a redone career mode.

 

[Jhawk1099]

On 5/8/2016 at 8:58 PM, RocketBlam said:

Well, fair enough. I guess it's a question of the difficulty curve. Once you can land on Minmus or the Mun, and can dock, unlocking the Lab is basically a ticket to the end of the tech tree. I mean yes, it is easy for me, the player who did the Kessel run in 12 parsecs returned a Kerbal from the surface of Eve -- Twice. 

(I'm sorry if it seems like I'm bragging about that, but... who else am I going to brag to? The people in World of Tanks?)

But it's actually easy for anyone who can just get to the Mun, and dock afterwards. Well... ok. You have a fair point. You also have to know how to rendezvous in orbit, which to be blunt, even the Russians couldn't figure out. *snip*

Ha! I have two marks of excellence in my T-34 and a pools medal! Bragging in world of tanks. But I have yet to return someone from the surface of Eve

[suicidejunkie]

 

9 hours ago, Streetwind said:

And plus, there's potential for some highly unusual gameplay there. I've previously pondered a career run where I am not allowed by houserule to transmit or recover any science at all, and must instead use the MPL alone to generate science. Likely with the multiplier reduced to x1.

Illogical and contrived? Yes, sure. But something refreshingly different. That's what houserules are there for, after all   The main reason why I haven't done it yet is that I'm not sure how to handle the start until the MPL becomes available. Just moving it to the starter node alone doesn't solve the problem, since it's a large and heavy 2.5m part.

 

What if you only allow yourself one MPL, parked permanently near the R&D building?

Perhaps edit it into the save, with docking clamps for power, a probe for control, and a ladder for accessibility (despite not having those techs unlocked yet, you can still copy-paste the vessel in).

 

If you set the science income slider to 0% in the config, can you still get science from the MPL?  If not, try setting the global science income multiplier to 0.1%, and the MPL value multiplier to 10000% to compensate.

 

You will need to deliver your experiments by hand (add fins to a suborbital rocket so you can land it within walking distance, build a Mk1 bowtie capsule rover, etc), and you'll only be able to process each experiment once (assuming you don't allow building new MPLs to send places)

Given the 0pts of data for most things on kerbin surface, and 1pt for most things in flight, and scaling it to 5x science per data, that seems like it would be a reasonable starting amount (if slow to process).

[wumpus]

On 5/8/2016 at 1:32 PM, fourfa said:

The MPL is not overpowered in Hard Mode.  Or with the Science Rewards slider turned down to whatever you want - Normal is 100%, Hard is 60%, and the slider goes down to 10%.  I guarantee that on 10% rewards, you will need to spam labs everywhere you can reach and lean on the > key quite a bit.

This is generally true for statement "XXX is OP!"  If anything in the game feels too easy, make it harder.  If you buy Call Of Duty and set it on easy mode, you shouldn't complain that you didn't get your money's worth because you finished the game in an hour.  

Sometimes I'm a little surprised how little discussion there is on the forums about difficulty levels in KSP - this ought to be everyone's primary mode of tuning the game to their liking, and there are a LOT of complex variables.

My problem is that the difficulty sliders in KSP don't change the difficulty.  They should just be labeled "grind sliders".  "Difficulty" sliders would increase the heating on re-entry, scale down the ISP of engines, and in general make the game harder.  What they actually do is make the game more tedious.

Note: as far as I know, it isn't that hard to do this.  Now *playing* with 80% of the ISP, that would be *hard*.

[fourfa]

Re-entry heating *is* a difficulty slider.  Maybe you haven't looked into the Custom difficulty options?  Easy is 50%, Normal-Moderate-Hard are 100%, it can go as high as 120%.

Difficulty, grind, tedium - hard to put absolute values on those.  For me, the lower science and funds rewards in a Hard mode career mean I need to be more creative to get around the part and size limits in the lower-tier buildings.  Being stuck with the small docking ports for most of the career imposes interesting limits.  Operating cash-poor meant really learning to cut margins (building, and piloting) to the bone.  Hard Mode taught me a whole new appreciation for the Twin Boar - in Normal, I never had a use for it, but in Hard it was my mainstay lifter for most of the career arc.

Maybe all of that sounds tedious rather than interesting?  

[Renegrade]

I think a nice solution to the MPL would be to make it a "return point" for science like KSC is.  As in, processing science there is the same, and suffers the same limitations as, returning the science to KSC.  So you can't send a second MPL to process new reports from the same old biomes, no multipliers, etc.  Also, I'd take resetting experiments away from scientists - having them being the only 'class' able to staff the MPL should be sufficient to justify their existence, especially since it would be the only way to re-use goo pods/science jrs (also contrast their usefulness against pilots).

By the way, in case people are curious about the numbers, here's what my research indicates for surface(-only) science:

Minmus: 690 per landing total (based on a return of a single result per type; Seis/Grav/Baro/Thermo/Crew report/EVA report/surface sample/Goo/ScienceJR) x9 biomes = 6,210 science

Mun: 552 per landing total x15 biomes =  8,280 science

Total: 14,490 science

Science tree size: 16,918 points total (including ALL nodes)

MPL factor: 5x if not at same world, 6.25x if at same world (plus there's a 10% landed bonus I think) - Giving 51,750 for a Mun station@Mun orbit and 38,812.5 for a Minmus station@Minmus orbit (total 90,562.5)

A second MPL in the same region can use experiments even if they've already been given to an MPL before.  And a third.. and a fourth.  I actually had a stupid vision once of attaching the MPL via a sr. docking port and trashing it once it was "used up" and sending a lightweight replacement...

23 minutes ago, wumpus said:

My problem is that the difficulty sliders in KSP don't change the difficulty.  They should just be labeled "grind sliders".  "Difficulty" sliders would increase the heating on re-entry, scale down the ISP of engines, and in general make the game harder.  What they actually do is make the game more tedious.

Agreed.  I'm playing a hard mode @ 20% sci save (in parallel to a 'normal' difficulty with RT, but that's just practice for fine orbital adjustments heh), and it's quite grindy.   The MPLs though are still powering through the tree, however.  Just takes longer to fill 'em up.  That 6.25x multiplier is completely negating the 20% sci penalty.  I'll probably have ALL of the non-fluff nodes before the Duna window opens up, and I only have one MPL per mun. 

Life support and the advanced RT-like (actually it sounds like it's more like AntennaRange-like) comms thing that was supposed to be in 1.1 would also increase difficulty (plus also make advanced bases more useful if they could be used for LS resupply).

NB: Reducing Isp to 80% would only really be a difficulty increase of about 1.25x.  Isp is a linear part of the equation..

14 hours ago, Leeman said:

So whats my point that I try to do here? If you believe it to be "Overpowered" and don't like it.. Just simply don't use it.. I have nearly unlocked all the techtree yet I only visited two Biomes on Minmus and one Biome on the moon and only orbital science of Kerbin. So it looks like to me, that you can fill up the tech tree completely or at least quite far without interplanetary travels and without the Mobile Processing Lab so in the end.. All fair game again

The "simply don't use it" argument has never been a valid one.  It's basically just sidestepping the issue - which is fine for a temporary workaround, but not for something that looks like it's a permanent and unbalanced part of the core game.  I've been avoiding using those (until very recently) in protest of their overpoweredness, and I'm no longer able to use them for their older functions, which were more fair and balanced (resetting of goo/science jrs, before scientist kerbals could do that)

Also "the current tree is broken" doesn't negate "the MPL is overpowered" argument at all.  Nor does "scientists are broken".  All of those need to be addressed for a more interesting experience.

21 minutes ago, fourfa said:

Re-entry heating *is* a difficulty slider.  Maybe you haven't looked into the Custom difficulty options?  Easy is 50%, Normal-Moderate-Hard are 100%, it can go as high as 120%.

Yeah, it is, but it's 100% for almost ALL the settings, so it's not really a thing outside of Custom Difficulty (Easy wasn't a necessary mode dammit).

21 minutes ago, fourfa said:

Difficulty, grind, tedium - hard to put absolute values on those.  For me, the lower science and funds rewards in a Hard mode career mean I need to be more creative to get around the part and size limits in the lower-tier buildings.  Being stuck with the small docking ports for most of the career imposes interesting limits.  Operating cash-poor meant really learning to cut margins (building, and piloting) to the bone.  Hard Mode taught me a whole new appreciation for the Twin Boar - in Normal, I never had a use for it, but in Hard it was my mainstay lifter for most of the career arc.

Maybe all of that sounds tedious rather than interesting?  

Twin boar is no match for some well-greased Reliants!  They're about 195 newtons per funds, whereas the Twin Boar is only about 177 even after subtracting a Jumbo64 from it.   The Twin-Boar is definitely better than the Mainsail (115) or Skipper (133), but it's often overpowered for many uses, whereas a cluster of three Reliants mounted on cubic octags is lower thrust and MUCH lower cost.

Default hard mode is only 60% science, so it's hardly much more grind at all.  Try in the 10-20% range...

20 hours ago, magnemoe said:

Do not see the problem, the lab is heavy, sending an lander with MK1 pod with scientist and the basic instruments, 360 fuel will let you sample all but the polar biome on Minmus. 
Unlock rest of the science instruments and wheels and send an rover to Mun, two landings give data from 10 biomes, if this don't unlock the rest an follow up mission to Minmus and the reminding biomes on Mun should solve this nicely. 

Actually, my MinLandX-M system can hit ALL the biomes, including the polar one (starting from an equatorial orbit nonetheless), for about 180 fuel.. Orbital rendezvous is still king.  Anyhow, just because scientists are stupidly overpowered doesn't mean that the MPL is NOT.   It's just a bit less overpowered.  And this thread is about the MPL.

Anyhow, the whole damn tree needs to be looked at, reorganized, tiered, and fixed up.  It's currently mostly insane.  Many of the top nodes are fluff (that 2.5m sized probe core is basically worthless outside of RemoteTech, for example - it's flimsy and floppy and has a tiny battery and huge power drain, mass, and costs a lot, so I never buy that node (outside of RT anyhow) until it's the very last one, and only then for completion factor), and the order of parts is often weird (the two-way stack decouplers usually come after the one-way decouplers, but the 0.625m one comes first?), and part costs/tiers are wacky and I feel that a number of opportunities are missed...

UPDATE: Uh crap that's a wall of text - TL;DR version: NO, U!