blackheart612

[1.4.x-1.6.x] Airplane Plus - R26.0 (A lot of fixes) (Mar 21, 2019)

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I'm in the same boat right now as well (heli's).   One thing I discovered is that if  you have tweakable everything installed make sure you right click on the cockpit and up all the torque settings to max, otherwise your craft will be unstable (I downloaded the sample craft files and the Huey was like this until I upped the torque, then it was flyable).    I'm using this part pack along with the contract pack "GAP" (giving aircraft a purpose).   I accepted the "rescue climbers from K2" contract and flew the Huey out there.   Much to my surprise and a good 30 min later, the huey was not able to climb above around 2500 meters, so I couldn't do the contract.

I'm also an Atmos Autopilot user, and while it works wonderful for fixed wing aircraft it doesn't have any idea how to handle Heli's or VTOL craft.  Unfortunately many of the contracts that are worth doing, also have LONG distances associated with them, and if you're going to fly at 4x physic's warp then your Autopilot better be up to the job.  Usually AA can do it just fine, but I can't fly any of the Heli's unless it's within a short distance of one of the runways, otherwise it's just too much time.

BTW if anyone has any bright idea's about how to get the climbers off of K2 without a heli, please let me know!! 

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On 2/19/2019 at 1:21 PM, reviest said:

Absolutely essential mod for me! Need some help with helicopters though. My babies confuse their controls - pressing W makes them move sideways (diagonally). However lift looks pretty stable. The same problem with crafts from author's KerbalX hangar.

Are you certian AirplanePlus is the problem? First time I've heard of this issue, I have no idea how to replicate it either. Is APP the only mod installed?

17 hours ago, Mr.hog23 said:

how does the helicopter collective work?

thx!

Collective is what makes the craft go up and down. There is always thrust, but the blades get oriented from 15 to -15 depending on your input. If it's positive, it's oriented to go up. Negative is down. Hovering automates the management of collective to (almost) negate the vertical movement.

7 hours ago, Friznit said:

I'm struggling with helis too.  Take off and flying around seems to go ok. Landing...not so much.  I can't get a stable hover going even with Hover mode enabled.  Atmospheric Autopilot mod is struggling too, and TCA doesn't recognise the rotors as engines.  Apologies if this has been covered already.  I'd very much appreciate a pointer though!

In the meantime, Kerbal Rotors Expansion is much more forgiving (perhaps too much) so that's an alternative to augment this pack for people in the same boat (Heli) as me.

AA doesn't work well with this, I've tested this, at least recently. TCA is already covered, APP has custom FS configs, it's not recognized by TCA and will never be, because it's more work for such a small problem (I'm the only one using these FS modules).

57 minutes ago, rottielover said:

I'm in the same boat right now as well (heli's).   One thing I discovered is that if  you have tweakable everything installed make sure you right click on the cockpit and up all the torque settings to max, otherwise your craft will be unstable (I downloaded the sample craft files and the Huey was like this until I upped the torque, then it was flyable).    I'm using this part pack along with the contract pack "GAP" (giving aircraft a purpose).   I accepted the "rescue climbers from K2" contract and flew the Huey out there.   Much to my surprise and a good 30 min later, the huey was not able to climb above around 2500 meters, so I couldn't do the contract.

I'm also an Atmos Autopilot user, and while it works wonderful for fixed wing aircraft it doesn't have any idea how to handle Heli's or VTOL craft.  Unfortunately many of the contracts that are worth doing, also have LONG distances associated with them, and if you're going to fly at 4x physic's warp then your Autopilot better be up to the job.  Usually AA can do it just fine, but I can't fly any of the Heli's unless it's within a short distance of one of the runways, otherwise it's just too much time.

BTW if anyone has any bright idea's about how to get the climbers off of K2 without a heli, please let me know!! 

Alright, helicopters, Usually you'd have the main rotor, providing lift on the aircraft's center of mass. Unfortunately, in KSP (Because I don't know VTOL flight mechanics irl),  with perfectly centered CoT and CoM, whenever you put too much "power" on a vtol, it will nose up and do a somersault in no time. Of course there are many factors to this, but that's straying away now. That's the gist of it.

-

Airplane Plus rotors can definitely get to 3000m (+), I assure you, I've tested it (because at some point I tested the ceiling limit for oxygen deprived helos like Huey),. Whether or not you hit your absolute ceiling is due to your power to weight ratio. If you're using the L K53 "Valkyrie" (Huey rotors), it's tested to be able to haul up to 4.8t weight, including the craft itself. The closer you are to this, needless to say, you're going to have a lower ceiling.

The HUE-1 Chieftain on KerbalX weighs at 3.28t(/4.8t), it's capable of reaching 3000m, but it requires a very small AoA. Basically, if you want to go up, you shouldn't move forward.

Moving on, that isn't the most ideal case. The rotors really are limited by me, due to a few factors:

First, they are limited to their unwritten bulkhead. Basically, the rotors are Mk1, Size 1.5, Size 2, and Mk3, and their power increase accordingly.
Second, they are ridiculously efficient with built-in hovering. In fact, the K73 "Beluga" can carry up to 12t under it, including the aircraft's weight.
Third, they are categorized based on their real life counterparts, as said, the K73 "Beluga" is based from the S-64 Skycrane. It's pretty heavy duty.
Fourth, this is the least considered but still affecting factor, I don't want them to ascend too fast. Because it looks ridiculous, and it helps in preventing somersaults.

Regarding the speed, yes, they are actually slow. About 3/5 or 2/3 of a real life helicopter. But seriously, a helicopter is actually slow in real life too. (50-60m/s - as fast as early APP engines). Increasing power will really affect the weight capacity. I'm worried that Hueys can suddenly lift rocket tanks and such, which should not be.

-

Anyway, I acknowledge that FS hovering isn't perfect. There are better ones out there, but it's free to be used from FS and it works. It's not the major dependency of this mod, a lot of APP is intertwined with FS, which is why it's better to use all the features I can, at least I think so.

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Thanks for the fast response.   Also just wanted to say that it's good to see you still active with KSP :)

I went back to re-investigate and discovered that "better atmospheres" had been installed, I don't remember picking that one so I have to assume ckan installed it along with something else but I'm not sure what.   I removed it and now I can get the Huey (Chieftain) up high enough for the contract I was talking about.  now I just have to decide if "wetter wings" is worth it or not.

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real quick anyone else having the landing gear "dance" ?   I'm using the angled gear with a 1.5 design for doing the GAP airline flights missions, but when I'm on the ground the gear dance and jiggle around.   I'm not sure if there's another mod affecting it or if it doesn't like that I clipped the gear into the fuselage a bit?

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The slanted gear? Yeah.... They're buggy. Problem with how the suspension is modelled and processed in Unity, iirc.

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It's kind of KSP's fault. No slant gears in KSP is the rule. There are a few work arounds and there will be quirks. Such as that. Also I moved to least potato setup. Hooray.

I'm just trying out the programs now that it's moved. I revised the K1710 almost from scratch. Almost.

hiyTqd8.png

That cowling is animated now for the Warhawk variant.

0QXRpG4.png

The intakes are now changed for the Ascender variant, the exhausts are just like the real deal. It still looks ugly due to bulkheads, though.

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Y'know, had a brainwave a few weeks back...

With the slanted gear, could you rig the suspension so that it's moving along the plane of rotation of the wheel, kinda like the new lunar rover wheels? It'd put an end to the wonky gear issues and be more realistic....

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1 hour ago, MaverickSawyer said:

Y'know, had a brainwave a few weeks back...

With the slanted gear, could you rig the suspension so that it's moving along the plane of rotation of the wheel, kinda like the new lunar rover wheels? It'd put an end to the wonky gear issues and be more realistic....

The answer is I don't know - because I haven't tested it yet. It may or may not work. I've thought of this before, animating the rover wheels as if they were landing gears, but I needed more info than what I knew. If you look around, nobody else is really paying attention to stock wheels. At least especially before, that's why Grounded was made, it was also a study of another type of wheel. Only time will tell if I find my way back to wheels. Right now, it won't work the way I set it up before. I've tested it and the mirroring is getting in the way. I'm basically just maintaining my old works as the version progresses (because there's a fair amount of them now and I continue to add more recently). If I get through the rework, I might just get into it.

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It's ok, this is an amazing pack, and It's easy enough to change out the gear for a different one.    I'm just getting back into KSP after a couple of years off and I'm kind of amazed.  In some areas the game has come such a long way, and in others, well not so much...

Anyway, amazing work, this particular pack is a must-have mod for anyone that wants to do anything with planes IMHO, especially the contract packs like GAP.

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19 hours ago, blackheart612 said:

It's kind of KSP's fault. No slant gears in KSP is the rule. There are a few work arounds and there will be quirks. Such as that. Also I moved to least potato setup. Hooray.

I'm just trying out the programs now that it's moved. I revised the K1710 almost from scratch. Almost.

hiyTqd8.png

That cowling is animated now for the Warhawk variant.

0QXRpG4.png

The intakes are now changed for the Ascender variant, the exhausts are just like the real deal. It still looks ugly due to bulkheads, though.

Now This Is the kind of Interesting Design Choices I'm talking about!

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Could I ask you to remove the link to CTT configs from the OP for the time being? They are horribly out of date and Unmanned Before Manned is no longer developed. I am working on an update.

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18 hours ago, Shiolle said:

They are horribly out of date and Unmanned Before Manned is no longer developed. I am working on an update.

There is new Unkerbaled start mod in development, though:

Following same idea as UBM mod and developing it further.

 

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28 minutes ago, kcs123 said:

There is new Unkerbaled start mod in development, though:

I personally was looking at Probes Before Crew.

I can say with that the configs I'm working on, when they are done, will support PBC, but integrating with Unkerballed looks like much more work, since there are more changes to the tech tree on top of CTT.

Edited by Shiolle

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4 hours ago, Shiolle said:

I can say with that the configs I'm working on, when they are done, will support PBC, but integrating with Unkerballed looks like much more work, since there are more changes to the tech tree on top of CTT. 

I think that APP is already covered in Unkerbaled start mod, but haven't tried it for myself, so take it with grain of salt.

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On 2/26/2019 at 6:42 AM, Shiolle said:

Could I ask you to remove the link to CTT configs from the OP for the time being? They are horribly out of date and Unmanned Before Manned is no longer developed. I am working on an update.

Thanks for the heads up. I don't test them so I wouldn't know. I dashed it out for now.

Anyway, I'll just be releasing one part on the next release, it's not even new, it'll be an experimental revision of the very first part of APP, which is K1710, it's rebuilt almost from the ground up, it generally looks the same but the changes should be visible. I want the next release to be not a patch but major but I also wanted to be able to release as soon as I can because I wanted to fix some stuff like the wrong position of the S1 APU. Here are some testing shots. As I stated earlier, I moved my dev stuff to a portable hard drive (which took a while to set up) so I'm using a less potato set up now.

yhv9OZv.png

I don't know if the subtle differences on the engine vs the rest of my parts are obvious but I at least see it.

kmnK6Ab.png

Experiments on Mk3 version of this engine. I didn't change the textures so no special texture for an Mk3 version, which I am sad about but this was a late idea which I forgot, managed to add still (I'm thinking of revising the textures again but Im not sure). This made the K1710 have a whooping 6 mesh variant (3 non-Mk3s and other half is Mk3)

XMZZoZ3.png

The bulkhead texture is changed, I'm ambivalent about it. I like it and not at the same time. I'll think of a better design if ever something comes up, I might change it. The Mk3 is currently blank, I have no designs in mind. But the part is mostly done. It's like I'm making 6 engines in one.

Yx5n0fN.png

Warhawk variant close up. Complete with specular and normal maps (it's subtle but I'm using bump shaders again, or at least for the first time in APP)

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On 2/20/2019 at 8:40 PM, blackheart612 said:

Are you certian AirplanePlus is the problem? First time I've heard of this issue, I have no idea how to replicate it either. Is APP the only mod installed?

Found the problem and you are right. Mandatory RCS cut all the control from cockpits therefore there was no controllable flight.

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Just wondering if anyone would like a pylonless variant of the Lotus? I mean, a variant which fits as a tail engine.

@blackheart612, what's your thought?

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4 hours ago, FahmiRBLXian said:

Just wondering if anyone would like a pylonless variant of the Lotus? I mean, a variant which fits as a tail engine.

Yes please :D.

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Regarding MK-3 parts, will cockpits also get them? I think it's simple enough, you just have to change the fuselage part of it into an MK-3 configuration, and of course add a mesh switch.

However, I also understand there might be tons of problems, so no rush :)

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@blackheart612 Are you aware that the Tweakscale specially for Airplane Plus isnt working anymore?. The link isnt showing the site it used to show.

 

If yall have the file id be real Happy.:wink:

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Posted (edited)
On 3/8/2019 at 3:27 PM, Rattana said:

@blackheart612 Are you aware that the Tweakscale specially for Airplane Plus isnt working anymore?. The link isnt showing the site it used to show..

As far as I know, TweakScale is "not working" for some very specific cases, most of them due wrongly applied patches. :)

TweakScale logs on KSP.log every problematic part it detects, pinpointing to an URL explaining the bug. Publish your KSP.log so we can diagnose your problem. 

— — — — — 

@Rattana, could you please provide your KSP.log and more information? I didn't found anything (new) wrong with TweakScale and Airplane Plus (or any other AddOn).

https://github.com/net-lisias-ksp/TweakScale/issues/28

54075134-4efa9880-427a-11e9-9d24-0917306

Edited by Lisias
tasting my own medicine :)

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@Lisias Im sorry for confusing you. I didnt specifically say that it isnt working anymore, i meant that the website where i can download the tweakscale for Airplane Plus from isnt working anymore. 

 

That happened a while ago from what i know i may not even be aware that the website is up running again.

 

now if you could provide the Airplane plus tweakscale file id be real happy about it since i cant find it anywhere.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, Rattana said:

@Lisias Im sorry for confusing you. I didnt specifically say that it isnt working anymore, i meant that the website where i can download the tweakscale for Airplane Plus from isnt working anymore. 

Ow. This is my favorite kind of issues! The ones that doesn't exist, so I don't have anything to fix! :D

Not a problem. It just happened that I'm working on some issues on TweakScale, and by "luck" (I hate you, Murphy!) what you described fit perfectly on the potential colateral effects I'm worrying about. :)  

 

34 minutes ago, Rattana said:

now if you could provide the Airplane plus tweakscale file id be real happy about it since i cant find it anywhere.

The thing is deeply buried on some site, and then, zipped together a lot of other patches:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/wrjma4jq9gu0frj/AACUNwRheKYoUULqeEhC_0cha?dl=0

Unzip the thing somewhere, and move what you want to your GameData.

 

(and thanks, by the way! I had forgot about this, and it's interesting to have it along to include on the testing! So, this ended up being useful! :) )

Edited by Lisias
additional thx

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Hey @blackheart612, found a bug in current version I wanted to pass along.

 

Versions: Airplane Plus R25.0 , ModuleManager 4.0.2 , KSP 1.6.1 w/ Making History   (no other mods installed)

Bugged Behavior: Advanced Categories do not work in the VAB, and trying to access them causes Simple Categories to break until the VAB is reloaded.

Steps to Reproduce: Start new sandbox game --> Enter VAB --> Open Advanced Part Categories --> Filter by cross-section profile (or any) --> Filter by Mk2 (or any) --> Notice no filters have applied to the list displayed --> Go back to Simple Categories --> Simple Categories no longer work either

 

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