[1.4.x-1.6.x] Airplane Plus - R26.0 (A lot of fixes) (Mar 21, 2019)

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8 minutes ago, kiwinanday said:

So, since I dunno if anyone else has, should I build a spreadsheet of each engine's performance at various altitudes (0km–8km, in 1km increments) and speeds (300-425kts (150-220m/s))? I imagine it would consist of fuel flow, from which you could deduce endurance based on a fixed amount of fuel at varying airspeed levels—kinda a mix of my two spreadsheets up there.

I'm thinking:

 300kts 325kts 350kts 375kts 400kts 425kts 0km 1km 2km 3km 4km 5km 6km 7km 8km

(props don't like going above 8km or 425kts)

please keep in mind that the only one that ive actually gone in and done the altitude curves and velocity curves in detail is the "Divine Wind" engine

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2 minutes ago, Tanner Rawlings said:

please keep in mind that the only one that ive actually gone in and done the altitude curves and velocity curves in detail is the "Divine Wind" engine

F'sure. I'm not looking to critique the engines—I'm just trying to figure out which one works best for the selected application (in this case, a Mosquito-style fighter-bomber, where range and speed are both important)

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@kiwinanday If I understood that correctly, that's about right, you can instead look at the configs though as it suggests the performance curve of the engine.

Now I may not be remembering my terms correctly but the atmospheric pressure (used in config instead of altitude) and the velocity are the independent variables, so that's almost about right there. There are two dependent variables you can measure from them. The thrust percent and the ISP. Both dependent variables are multiplied to the value in the config - so 1 is 100%. And as expected, at what point it is multiplied is determined by the independent variables - which are the first numbers (i.e, atmCurve  key {1 [atmpressure] 1 [multiplier for stationary thrust]})

So if you want to know precisely the exact values, you would want to create the curves in the config. Now, I'm not sure if Tanner Rawlings uses something which can show you the exact curves but it's probably possible to make a simple line graph using the config file. It'll save you some time testing.

@trevisan7 Thank you, your help and feedback are much appreciated

Edited by blackheart612

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1 hour ago, trevisan7 said:

About the sound, yea, the problem is the right channel audio =P, the sound at idle is a custom one that i've placed on, so the sound itself is not the issue, only the right channel.

Yeah I did the KAX audio configs and suffice to say, your choices of audio module are both bad.  Firespitter no longer works correctly with the right channel and Squad's audio module does not provide all of the start delays that the propellers use.  I'm kind of hoping Squad adds in a few extra features there eventually to replace the need for Firespitter's audio configs completely but right now it's a choice between one channel audio or sounds that all play at the same time.  You can hear this on some of the KAX engines if you listen sharp, you will hear the idle sounds the moment the engine stages, even while the prop is beginning its spin up, where in earlier version you only heard the spin up sound and the idle sound started later.

Edited by Alshain

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@Alshain That's precisely the dilemma that's always there. I couldn't compromise the start ups so I leaned towards staying with the right channel issue.

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Personally, I'm better at trial and measurement than reading code display—true Kerbal style!

7 minutes ago, blackheart612 said:

@kiwinanday If I understood that correctly, that's about right, you can instead look at the configs though as it suggests the performance curve of the engine.

Now I may not be remembering my terms correctly but the atmospheric pressure (used in config instead of altitude) and the velocity are the independent variables, so that's almost about right there. There are two dependent variables you can measure from them. The thrust percent and the ISP. Both dependent variables are multiplied to the value in the config - so 1 is 100%. And as expected, at what point it is multiplied is determined by the independent variables - which are the first numbers (i.e, atmCurve  key {1 [atmpressure] 1 [multiplier for stationary thrust]})

So if you want to know precisely the exact values, you would want to create the curves in the config. Now, I'm not sure if Tanner Rawlings uses something which can show you the exact curves but it's probably possible to make a simple line graph using the config file. It'll save you some time testing.

@trevisan7 Thank you, your help and feedback are much appreciated

Edited by kiwinanday

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4 minutes ago, blackheart612 said:

@Alshain That's precisely the dilemma that's always there. I couldn't compromise the start ups so I leaned towards staying with the right channel issue.

I completely understand.  It's really the authors choice over the lesser of two evils lol.

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@kiwinanday Well, then I say you got the variables right already. Just some flying and you'll get grooving. I was thinking of making the graph myself but not yet today maybe.

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Can you try to duplicate the sound to the left side? (could be a possible time / fix since Alshain said it's kind of a plugin limit)

9 minutes ago, Alshain said:

Yeah I did the KAX audio configs and suffice to say, your choices of audio module are both bad.  Firespitter no longer works correctly with the right channel and Squad's audio module does not provide all of the start delays that the propellers use.  I'm kind of hoping Squad adds in a few extra features there eventually to replace the need for Firespitter's audio configs completely but right now it's a choice between one channel audio or sounds that all play at the same time.  You can hear this on some of the KAX engines if you listen sharp, you will hear the idle sounds the moment the engine stages, even while the prop is beginning its spin up, where in earlier version you only heard the spin up sound and the idle sound started later.

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4 minutes ago, blackheart612 said:

@kiwinanday Well, then I say you got the variables right already. Just some flying and you'll get grooving. I was thinking of making the graph myself but not yet today maybe.

For now, I just have altitude on one axis, and airspeed on the other, with six different sections—one for each engine. As far as thrust goes, I'm leaving that off for now, because you'll be able to see in the fuelflow when an engine is reaching its peak. Will have this compiled (and shared) later this evening. Should give your man @Tanner Rawlings a good reference for what engines need balancing where.

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29 minutes ago, trevisan7 said:

Can you try to duplicate the sound to the left side? (could be a possible time / fix since Alshain said it's kind of a plugin limit)

The problem is that KSP 1.1+ uses a new directional sound configuration.  It's not just throwing sound at the speakers anymore, the sound has to have a designated source or sound producer, which in this case will always be 'Ship'.  Firespitter doesn't support it (maybe it will in the future, you would have to ask in that thread), but there is nothing he can do to fix it.

Edited by Alshain

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17 minutes ago, Alshain said:

The problem is that KSP 1.1+ uses a new directional sound configuration.  It's not just throwing sound at the speakers anymore, the sound has to have a designated source or sound producer, which in this case will always be 'Ship'.  Firespitter doesn't support it (maybe it will in the future, you would have to ask in that thread), but there is nothing he can do to fix it.

Well.... so the problem is only fixed if the plugin or the KSP resolve the issue =/

I tried messing around with the code with no success, so the only fix for now is do what the KAX did with the sound =/

Also, thanks for sharing this information =D @Alshain

Edited by trevisan7

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Ok, here's my mystery—the following is a graph of fuel consumption for the Bumblebee, at various speeds and altitudes.

My test aircraft, running twin Bumblebees, is cruising at 8km and 400kts (or as close as I can get—see vmax note). My fuel consumption should be .16u/s, when it's displaying as 0.01u/s.

What am I missing?

Edited by kiwinanday
at, not and

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@kiwinanday Pardon me but would you care to elaborate? I didn't understand the problem.

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14 hours ago, kiwinanday said:

Ok, here's my mystery—the following is a graph of fuel consumption for the Bumblebee, at various speeds and altitudes.

My test aircraft, running twin Bumblebees, is cruising at 8km and 400kts (or as close as I can get—see vmax note). My fuel consumption should be .16u/s, when it's displaying as 0.01u/s.

What am I missing?

The Bumblebee, Divine Wind, Marlin, and Whirlwind all use speed and atmosphere curves for ISP, which really changes their performance and fuel consumption from expected.

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I guess I'm just a bit confused why the engine fuel flow data (when you right click on the engine) displays one value, while the resource window (the pop out menu in the top right) displays a completely different, much lower value. It's not a problem, per se, it just means that my range calculations show amounts much lower than what is actually achievable.

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4 hours ago, kiwinanday said:

I guess I'm just a bit confused why the engine fuel flow data (when you right click on the engine) displays one value, while the resource window (the pop out menu in the top right) displays a completely different, much lower value. It's not a problem, per se, it just means that my range calculations show amounts much lower than what is actually achievable.

Oh, that's because those engines also don't have the "IgnoreForISP = True" flag on their intake air, so the fuel flow data when you click on the engine is including their IntakeAir data.

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Are you adding an electric propeller? As it is I'm probably going to get this mod since I like how these propellers are more stock-alike than Firespitter's. But a stock-alike electric propeller would be nice

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@Brownhair2 Can't say for sure yet, but we'll see in the future. We might get there if everything that's planned is gonna go well. I paused for a bit in modeling for now. The next release might be the bridge to the second phase.

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AM I the only one having problems with these engines? I can't make any workable planes with these props (including from KAX) because (even though CoL is just behinf CoM), the craft will not take off and will instead pitch downward. And judging by the thrust, it's offset upwards from the center of the prop.

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@CodeFantastic The thrust is set on the center of the propeller. May I see your set up with the CoL and CoM nodes?

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1 hour ago, blackheart612 said:

@CodeFantastic The thrust is set on the center of the propeller. May I see your set up with the CoL and CoM nodes?

I did the same set up but with turbo jets and it did the same thing, I feel it may be a wheel problem. I have two in the front and one in the back. I'll try ti post a picture soon.

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I actually have a problem. Whirlwind is OK, having both forward and reverse thrust, but the other 3 reverse is not functioning at all.

Is it me or it is something that is being worked on ?

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@Mapoko It's something that's still unknown to me. But like I said, reversing the thrust on the hangar before you launch will make it possible for you to reverse at anytime in flight. I looked at the configs and didn't see anything different from firespitter's so I'm wondering why they don't work except if you reverse on hangar.

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@blackheart612 Thanks! I will try to remember doing that.

Possibly a silly question, but why are the engines so far back in the tech tree ? Shouldn't we play with rotary engines before we use jet power ?

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