Devnote Tuesday: Looking Back to the Future

[NoMrBond]

10 minutes ago, Arsonide said:

We have been in contact with Edy.

I knew Squad had been in touch with Edy, I was suggesting Lo-Fi and ShatterMage contact Edy since they're possibly treading in the same space on building custom wheel modules, and they might have suggestions, solutions and/or insights which benefit each others work.

[Violent Jeb]

Great devnotes. To the point, well thought out, and it almost sounds like we have been heard with all our banging about.

Update 1.1.x is going to be a good one.

1.2 however, seems to be an acronym for, "update unity, break everything, add a bunch of stuff" (which is all fine), and therefore I am super happy you're working on 1.1.3 first.

Unity 5 launched in mar 15', (..just after our 1.0 iirc)
5.1 in june 15'
5.2 in sept 15'
5.3 in dec 15'

I don't know if ksp is running 5 or 5.1 or 5.3 but if you can get orbits and wheels sorted ultimately that is of little consequence to me. keep on doing the things!

Edited May 31, 2016 by Violent Jeb
bolded, underlined, and italicized one word

[AlphaMensae]

9 minutes ago, Violent Jeb said:

Great devnotes. To the point, well thought out, and it almost sounds like we have been heard with all our banging about.

Update 1.1.x is going to be a good one.

1.2 however, seems to be an acronym for, "update unity, break everything, add a bunch of stuff" (which is all fine), and therefore I am super happy you're working on 1.1.3 first.

Unity 5 launched in mar 15', (..just after our 1.0 iirc)
5.1 in june 15'
5.2 in sept 15'
5.3 in dec 15'

I don't know if ksp is running 5 or 5.1 or 5.3 but if you can get orbits and wheels sorted ultimately that is of little consequence to me. keep on doing the things!

KSP 1.1 is using Unity 5.2.4 right now.

[linuxgurugamer]

1 hour ago, NathanKell said:

We know there are serious issues and we'd like to take advantage of Unity updates that fix them. If 5.4 is taking too long to be released and get stable, that would unduly delay fixes for you all.

Yes. We've been talking about that fairly constantly, actually, including one of the first posts in the Grand 1.1 Discussion thread (from @Arsonide who did most of the recent wheel fixes to get them as working as possible).

We live to make you suffer. And by rework we mean "fix serious bugs / make optimizations so garbage isn't spewed as much / etc." Speaking as a mod dev, not a KSP dev, I'll gladly take some mod fixing and recompiling in exchange for that. I hope you would too.

LOL

I was joking, sort of.  I just don't want to see 3 releases in 2 weeks again, that was a bit much.

It would be good if you released the beta of the bug fixes to give people a few days to try it out before doing a full release

[AlamoVampire]

1 hour ago, sarbian said:

Unity does not publish a timeline for when 5.4 will be released. It could be next week on next year. Their public beta is nearly 2 month old so hopefully it won't be much longer but KSP can't wait forever.

I know it cant wait forever, but, if <as just an example> say, the 5.4 beta was going to say end say June 30th 2016 with the engine upgrade being released July 1 wouldnt it make sense to just wait that out? Now, with my example being said, I fully understand Squad not waiting say until January <again only example> to push 1.2 out the door for the sake of 5.4, but, I would hope they <either unity OR squad> have some of these major issues wrangled and penned in before 1.2 comes along. Just bein hopeful.

[selfish_meme]

25 minutes ago, AlamoVampire said:

I know it cant wait forever, but, if <as just an example> say, the 5.4 beta was going to say end say June 30th 2016 with the engine upgrade being released July 1 wouldnt it make sense to just wait that out? Now, with my example being said, I fully understand Squad not waiting say until January <again only example> to push 1.2 out the door for the sake of 5.4, but, I would hope they <either unity OR squad> have some of these major issues wrangled and penned in before 1.2 comes along. Just bein hopeful.

But then 5.4 is bound to have new bugs some of which might possibly be worse, you neveer plan to update to an unreleased version.

[FirstSecondThird]

500,000 funds say that 15 minutes after 1.1.3 gets released, 1.1.4 will be released. Typical Squad, they do a tiny update, then, a short time later, release another version that fixes the issue the previous one introduced, and on and on. Unity Engine is like this. Every time you make minor tweaks to your game, it messes stuff up and you need to fix the stuff that was messed up which exacerbates the underlying problem with the update before the previous one.

Edited June 1, 2016 by FirstSecondThird
Spelling & grammar typo

[AlamoVampire]

13 minutes ago, selfish_meme said:

But then 5.4 is bound to have new bugs some of which might possibly be worse, you neveer plan to update to an unreleased version.

I am aware of this, but, I am also trying to be hopeful in a personally dark time. I would wager that they should have some of the issues in the current unity addressed with 5.4, and I cant find the post I saw it in, but, there was scuttle that said some of the issues are addressed in 5.4...so...returning to being hopeful

10 minutes ago, FirstSecondThird said:

500,000 funds say that 15 minutes after 1.1.3 gets released, 1.1.4 will be released. Typical Squad, they do a tiny update, then, a short time later, release another version that fixes the issue the previous one introduced, and on and on. Unity Engine is like this. Every time you make minor tweaks to your game, it messes stuff up and you need to fix the stuff that was messed up which exacerbates the underlying problem with the update before the previous one.

This is true of ALL code. One tweak here messes with something a hundred or a thousand or a million lines of code away. Unity =/= perfect. Its a jack of all trades, master of none engine.

[MaxPeck]

2 hours ago, NathanKell said:

We live to make you suffer. 

FINALLY, you admit this is all just for the sake of schadenfreude.  I knew it.  You're all sitting there in your villainous lair, twirling your villainous mustaches and laughing your villainous maniacal laughs.

I just knew it.

[Waxing_Kibbous]

Whoa whoa whoa, did somebody say rocket parts? *looks forward to some future gifs*

[Arsonide]

1 hour ago, selfish_meme said:

But then 5.4 is bound to have new bugs some of which might possibly be worse, you neveer plan to update to an unreleased version.

5.4 has been in an unusually long public beta state for Unity, so it should be in a greater state of polish.

[beelzerob]

Sounds like v1.2 is when I start playing again.  Yay for antennas!

[TrooperCooper]

Is the constant stuttering in intervals (garbage collection), caused by large numbers of on-rails vessels anywhere on the radar of squad? Or is that issue that quite some people are suffering from rooted so deep in the games code, that its not worth the dev-time to fix it?

ps: I am aware of the modding attempts to deal with this

[Frank_G]

Very nice Dev-Notes. Glad to see the team did not broke apart and that KSP is in good hands. Keep on goin'

[steve_v]

11 hours ago, NathanKell said:

And by rework we mean "fix serious bugs / make optimizations so garbage isn't spewed as much / etc."

If by "serious bugs" you mean the infamous crashing... Much awesome.
If by garbage you mean the infamous stutter... well, that's the top two items on my personal wishlist covered.

Wheels get a mention too it seems, and that makes it as #3, so... All around win? Sounds good to me.

Edited June 1, 2016 by steve_v
more "L"

[monophonic]

12 hours ago, SQUAD said:

 

... improving on our processes based on the lessons we learned ...

This is the single most important news of these dev notes, by a huge margin, in my not humble at all opinion. Improving processes reduces bug counts and just makes everything better in general way beyond 1.1.3 or 1.3, indeed for versions and games yet to be dreamed of. I don't have experience from many companies, but I have worked for a very successful one as well as one constantly on the edge of failure. The only meaningful difference between them was that the former had improving their processes as part of all their processes, while the latter did not. So of all things in these notes, this is what will give the most positive results in the end.

[Padishar]

3 hours ago, TrooperCooper said:

Is the constant stuttering in intervals (garbage collection), caused by large numbers of on-rails vessels anywhere on the radar of squad? Or is that issue that quite some people are suffering from rooted so deep in the games code, that its not worth the dev-time to fix it?

It is certainly on their radar as I have personally discussed it with more than one Squad developer.  That particular aspect of the excess garbage creation isn't deeply rooted (though there is a complication with mods that change the mass of parts while the vessel is on rails) and, as @NathanKell specifically mentioned "make optimizations so garbage isn't spewed as much", I am hopeful that this particular source of garbage (and a number of other serious offenders) will be very much improved in 1.1.3.

[Azimech]

One thing I don't really understand is why everyone seems so focused on wheel colliders.

I've made these wheels with normal colliders, just specify a custom physic material to set bounce & friction and you're done. And since colliders on the same craft are ignored, no problems when a collider of the wheel intersects with other colliders. The wheels work fine at higher speeds, drifting is no problem etc. What am I missing?

 

 

 

 

Edited June 1, 2016 by Azimech

[Majorjim!]

Just now, Azimech said:

What am I missing?

Something probably.

[lodger]

14 hours ago, Arsonide said:

Ideally we'd jump right to 5.4, because 5.3 has its own set of issues. However, that is still in beta, so it really depends on Unity's release schedule.

Please, take your time if needed. Please!!

[Padishar]

28 minutes ago, Azimech said:

I've made these wheels with normal colliders, just specify a custom physic material to set bounce & friction and you're done. And since colliders on the same craft are ignored, no problems when a collider of the wheel intersects with other colliders. The wheels work fine at higher speeds, drifting is no problem etc. What am I missing?

It's hard to say, though I presume there must be something.  Perhaps they behave less well when at a more "normal" size or perhaps your parts are permitting "rotation" in a different way to normal wheels.  Your wheels also don't appear to have suspension and I assume they aren't powered, both of which are likely to considerably affect the "physical" behaviour...

One question, I notice when you're turning that the wheel appears to rub on the chassis.  Does this cause friction, slowing you down in the turn?

Oh, one other thing, it might be an idea to disable the staging list fuel gauges for your "injectors".  This could give you a performance improvement (game rather than vehicle ) and should avoid a lot of the horrendous flickering of the staging list...

[TrooperCooper]

1 hour ago, Padishar said:

It is certainly on their radar as I have personally discussed it with more than one Squad developer.  That particular aspect of the excess garbage creation isn't deeply rooted (though there is a complication with mods that change the mass of parts while the vessel is on rails) and, as @NathanKell specifically mentioned "make optimizations so garbage isn't spewed as much", I am hopeful that this particular source of garbage (and a number of other serious offenders) will be very much improved in 1.1.3.

Thanks. Didnt see that quote from Nathan. I guess sooner or later this issue will get a very high priority anyway. At the latest when the antennas modifications are introduced and all the folks who play stockish only will run into this problem due to using networks of many probes. Just like this issue makes me consider uninstalling Remote Tech again.

 

[Navy2k]

17 hours ago, Hobbes Novakoff said:

Anyone wanna bet that 1.1.3 will be followed three seconds later by 1.1.4? Not being pessimistic, though-I just like even numbers, they feel better 

OCD much?

[colmo]

@Azimech, I've advocated a similar approach for rotors and props - all we need is a spindle controlled by the throttle, standard type parts do the rest. Before there were working wheels, I remember rovers made using rotatrons from Damned Robotics (now Infernal Robotics).

Wheels have the issue of terrain interaction - time-warp would increase the chance of a part clipping into the terrain and going boom. Using the full physical simulation would allow building complex suspensions - I asked @SpannerMonkey(smce) once if he could make a damper part (basically a stretchy, rebounding strut), maybe using the robotics pistons (I think we both forgot about it). I once made a torsion suspension using rotatrons - robotics are somewhat stiffer and less springy now.

What the Kerbal Foundries team is working on looks very good - it's a reasonably accurate and tweakable simulation which would not have a ballooning part count. That's not to say full multi-part suspensions aren't a good idea. It would only need a few parts (powered steering being the most complex, requiring a part that can spin a wheel and respond to steering input). Wheels would be independent of power and steering inputs, potentially - I foresee F1 style, KIS-powered tyre change pitstops....

Infinite Dice, DYJ and others have suggested or tried separating the powerplant from the props/wheels/engines. Right now, we can use generators to generate charge to power electric wheels, but there's nothing to stop a combustion engine generating a torque resource (it could rapidly deplete), which the axles would use to turn the wheels. Brakes would be another issue...

Edited June 1, 2016 by colmo

[SpannerMonkey(smce)]

4 hours ago, Azimech said:

One thing I don't really understand is why everyone seems so focused on wheel colliders.

I'll tell you why, as is fairly obvious from the amazing things you turn out that you have a gift for lateral thinking, ever since the beginning of time wheel colliders have been the way to do wheels, it's blindingly obvious when i see what you've done, but I've  fought with wheels for years and never considered using a stock cylinder type collider. This is however very interesting as the current wheel setup  sucks( i know it's unity not ksp) and will not allow my off road axles and suspensions to work, but this idea may.

Re the flexibility  of IR it's still there, or it was in 1.0.5, it's a simple case of tweaking the cfg to get the kind of results you would not want in a ram or rotor but are perfect (provisional) for our uses. However It still takes 3 parts to make a functional damper that wont cause restrictions to the wheel movement, you need  the damper and a pivot each end, unless you attach the wheel directly to the damper and have that be the main attachment to the chassis ( bit bleh but it'd be passable)

Edited June 1, 2016 by SpannerMonkey(smce)