Kerbal Train Discussion

[ruiluth]

Trains are my thing as well but I would never do them in KSP. Not out of rocket or plane parts. Until I can get SD40-2s to Laythe or boxcab electrics to haul my 200-car ore trains on Dres there is no point.

On the other hand, rebuilding the Milwaukee Road on Dres would be AWESOME... I'm gonna have to look into photoshopping images of that.

EDIT: not my picture and crappy editing but I like this idea

Edited June 3, 2016 by ruiluth

[Overland]

Little update -

Ive been struggling with modded stock wheels with less success than id like.. in anycase it wont help anyone else if I do it this way

So ive been experimenting with multiple rover types and mod packs.. finally making one successful land train

Her wheels are from the buffalo rover  as mentioned in the OP..  the rear wagon has full suspension and dampening with the control cab having none.. wagons also have none except the last 6 wheels on the rear tanker

The only mod that isnt downloadable is my airhorns but they're just ant radial engines with custom sounds .. nothing special or practical for most people

so its possible to have a land train. and thanks for the user who mentioned using trim..

I never realised before but we can control the speed of a rover/landtrain by using W and S with ALT for trim speeds of forward and back.. with this its possible to set a train hands off to any speed. and same with a rover.. very useful for someone who doesnt have a steering wheel and pedals like I do... and even then it works has an effective cruise control to give ones feet a rest on a long drive

Rear wagons 6 wheels are also set to full 5 friction setting.. with the steering leading wheels of the locomotive also set likewise

the result is a very stable 40 something capable land train.. the one pictured having 10000 units of LFO fuel to deliver once I go for a long drive to an outlying launch base

so all up.. should help people better than trying to modify stock things, seems the community has a better handle on wheels as a whole in the modding scene vs anything stock... a nice but also sad realisation

 

Here we have LTV-102 Leaving KSC

Edited June 4, 2016 by Overland

[The_Rocketeer]

Had some thoughts today about using the A.I.R.B.R.A.K.E.S. to makes a coupling knuckle. No idea if this will work, will share findings if I get around to trying it out.

[Overland]

KAS Magnets work like this.. the problem is brakes Unless we want to use a remote control mod or program KOS to link multiple KOS cores.. then with the wagons coupled (undocked) by magnets or airbrakes.. they're basically seperate vehicles and wont respond to brakes or motor inputs.. ironic I know given the idea .. seems we need air brakes for coupling and airbrakes for brakes in a train

[Overland]

Ive Uploaded the above train minus the horns and nameplates to KerbalX, ive modified her best I can to be compatable with keyboard (but trim works nicely for throttle)

 

KerbalX says a part is unknown, its actually the Puma Pod (Cockpit) that should be in the puma download listed in the post with the links I made.

let me know if theres any problems.. shes been setup to be a rocket fuel (LF/O) transporter with 10000 units of fuel and KAS ports for offloading into a tank

https://kerbalx.com/Overland/Landtrain-PumaBuffalo

(KerbalX has problems with the Puma Rover - download @ https://spacedock.info/mod/590/Version_2.0%20Industries%20Rover%20Pack.

 

Edited June 4, 2016 by Overland

[Kerbin vonKerbal]

That's a real nice looking train overland. I haven't had much of a chance to sit and thoroughly attempt a train mission yet, aside from designing the locomotive the other night. Maybe I'll give it a go tonight with a fresh install and some mods/parts packs I've never used.  

[Ival70]

I've found that having more than 5 mk3 cars (including engine, tender, etc) causes too much stress on the couplings.  I've also found that suspension plays a big part in rollovers.  One trick to get around this is to create a separate chassis underneath the carriages using mk2 parts, which can also be used to lower the center of gravity.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Ival70
Clarification

[kBob]

I was thinking about this, wouldn't rails be possible?  They'd have to be in short sections due to length limits (and the gaps would help with expansion contraction from heat changes).  If you can set two rails down parallel to each other with a gauge just slightly larger than the the distance between tires would not the rails (if high enough) keep the vehicle going along the tracks.  Short sections for elevation changes.  Might be tricky to lay the track I guess (especially curves which might need a slightly larger gauge) and it would just be point to point.  Of course the part count might be a problem too, but now that we have a 64 bit version...  I guess the tires might heat up from friction so maybe some special tires that have frictionless sides if that's possible.  Just speculating I haven't delved into the mysteries of the Unity engine yet (real soon now ). 

 

Oh forgot to mention they'd of course need to use some kind of ground clamp unless they could be made heavy enough to just stay put (baring Kuakes).

Edited June 5, 2016 by kBob

[r4pt0r]

On 6/2/2016 at 9:11 AM, GregroxMun said:

I like trains. Especially the Hype ones.

just reading the thread title, I thought you were the train guy he was referencing. 

[The_Rocketeer]

35 minutes ago, kBob said:

I was thinking about this, wouldn't rails be possible?  They'd have to be in short sections due to length limits (and the gaps would help with expansion contraction from heat changes).  If you can set two rails down parallel to each other with a gauge just slightly larger than the the distance between tires would not the rails (if high enough) keep the vehicle going along the tracks.  Short sections for elevation changes.  Might be tricky to lay the track I guess (especially curves which might need a slightly larger gauge) and it would just be point to point.  Of course the part count might be a problem too, but now that we have a 64 bit version...  I guess the tires might heat up from friction so maybe some special tires that have frictionless sides if that's possible.  Just speculating I haven't delved into the mysteries of the Unity engine yet (real soon now ). 

 

Oh forgot to mention they'd of course need to use some kind of ground clamp unless they could be made heavy enough to just stay put (baring Kuakes).

 

I think this is about the limit of what can be done with rails in KSP atm. Modded rail sets might work out, but there's still an absolute limit to the size you can build in the editor and over a certain size things just start falling apart.

Just remembered this thing I made last autumn:
 

 

[kBob]

2 minutes ago, The_Rocketeer said:

 

I think this is about the limit of what can be done with rails in KSP atm. Modded rail sets might work out, but there's still an absolute limit to the size you can build in the editor and over a certain size things just start falling apart.

Interesting the track is a little more complicated than I was thinking of (closer to a prototype rr) but interesting, thanks.  If I could turn KSP into a real train simulator I would (complete with turnouts, crossings etc.)...just give me 10 years.

[The_Rocketeer]

Look what I found:

 

 

[Overland]

Rails or wagonways are very possible in KSP..ive seen posts verifying such things and even build some myself with kerbal konstructs

I must admit though heres where my interests take the branchline. 

Ive got no interest in rails in KSP 

(I hear gasps and shouts of heretic!!!)

 

See I love trains in general..battery electric mining narrow gauge..steam monsters..suburban sets, industrial locos..the lot

 

Infact its fair to say I like everything on rails exvept doors and windows

I was actually quite emotional when my favorate train id basically grew up with got scrapped some years back.. Always wanted to save her from the cutting torch.. 

Ended up paying 350 to get her custom painted in oil and canvas in a one of a kind painting...

 

the quest of which to get painted stretched from the likes of enquiries to Ariana Richards of jurassic park fame.. Micheal Trimm of war of the worlds album cover & thunderbirds fame . Eventually settling on a local painter Joseph Spinella

 

Life story covered.. The point being KSP changed that...

 

Yes im very much one of a few train guys

 

but..

 

through experimentation i came across real world land trains that once existed..monsterous titans that plyed snowfields during the cold war..

Suddenly what was once blasphamy to me begain to gain favor..

Mechjeb derived fixed tracks gave way to joystick and throttle..eventually settling on a dedicated wheel and throttle

 

Sure my trains are railway inspired..atleast in someway...

They have horns like trains..sound like trains..have loosely termed railyards..stabling areas.. Diesel electric transmissions and even retain railway like class systems and names

 

But for me KSP land trains is where its at..being one of the first.games to offer proper terrain on a planet sized play area..snow..grass..dirt..mountains..dangers most harsh and beautiful landscapes a plenty

There seems to be just a tad of negativity as to who just is this train guy vs myself but.. You know what?

It doesnt matter..

Ill be happy when  my job in KSP is to drive the (head canon) official Kerbal space center overland train..supplying outposts hundreds of km into the snow and mountains with fuel and people

 

Wheels as big as houses and enough cargo to bring KSC and the kitchen sink..reliving the history of short lived overland trains and keeping thier legacy alive

Thats my thing

 

Edited June 6, 2016 by Overland

[Kerbinchaser]

I like Trainz.

[Overland]

I made the FFR 2ft narrow gauge loco in trainz 1.3

But back on the subject of KSP land trains..ive had great success with going backwards from mainline diesel electrics to..opposite of the spectrum..

Little cargo and crew transporter trams

Speed limited to 13ms for longer range units (outside of ksc) and a respectable but realistic 6.5ms for use within ksc using its complex pathways as "rails" they present a very very stable yet train like unit not all that different from realworld "dotto trains"

 

 

Smaller is better.. With a steeringwheel its a really nice drive..

Ive always wanted a job driving one..KSP again forfills a dream

 

At the moment im using buffalo rover wheels and puma body..

In the near future im releasing a repaint and modded perfected configuration file (with aliased stock model) specifically for low speed 12ms land train use but rated upto 105ms for aircraft

Half the cost in science and money than the default m1 wheels since these are rubber pnumatic

 

Traditionally whitewalled for locomotives and unpowered black for wagons

Edited June 16, 2016 by Overland

[DChurchill]

On 6/5/2016 at 2:08 PM, The_Rocketeer said:

Look what I found:

 

 

Oh, the kerbmanity.

[The_Rocketeer]

Here's another one for posterity:
 

 

[Kerbin vonKerbal]

1 hour ago, The_Rocketeer said:

Here's another one for posterity:
 

 

That was phenomenal. Tonight I'm gonna have another go at land trains. I've got a few atmospheric/land based measurement contracts I have to fulfill in my career save just north of KSC. What better time to engineer a land train. 

[Znath]

I've got mine, it's only got one car so more of a .. jet rover or mobile base I guess than a train.

1.1 murdered it for now, so I may have to wait or experiment a bit more to get it going again.

 

 

I also have a similar one on the moon.  As of 1.1.1.1 I can't use the rover wheels at all and where it used to be able to go 40-50m/s now it's down to 20ish as a "risky" level of speed even.  I once got to 95m/s on the ice caps in a speed test.   Dry weight is around 50 tons?

[n.b.z.]

So I could finally have started that first crewed mission to one of the Outer Planets, an endeavour for which I have a sophisticated launch stack ready to be flown. For months now, actually.

At least, I could have carried on with my "Mars Direct" -inspired program of putting nice bases on Duna. An activity that started just because I thought about how I would put together an ISRU-capable "MAV"-style vehicle, and ended as a program consisting of three very complex launch stacks with way over 500 parts each.

But nooooo... I just have to aimlessly wander into this thread, once more finding myself inspired by Overlands activities. This time, actually, inspired enough to ask myself how I would put together a flexible coupling for train cars, given my weird habit of not using any mod parts, or modded parts. (I should have learned by now, that this is exactly the sort of situation in which I should absolutely resist clicking on that KSP icon.)

Two days later, whilst looking at KSP on my screen, I am suddenly struck by a strange realization: the contraption I'm looking at is related to the Outer Planets, or even just Duna, about as much as the history of Antarctic expeditions is related to the fact that I own a guitar, but never learned to play it. Which is to say, not at all.

I don't even know what's going on here.

What I do know, is that I used to think that Tylo is a problem. Or that Eve is a scary place. I have been humbled now: driving westwards from the KSC, I found the very first, ridiculously low range of hills - the very first instance of sloping terrain west of the perfectly flat plains around the KSC - to be an almost insurmountable obstacle! At least for me, as I have no clue about trains and have not actually been interested in them before. And this is before I even put ANY (fuel) load into the cars...

A few words about that first train of mine. Which is obviously very amateurish and experimental, and may not actually resemble a train for those who have a clue about these things.

• 100% stock
• Miserable performance: max. speed about 10 m/s without any cargo (fuel) in open terrain, and only 5 m/s when fully loaded AND driving on perfectly level KSC terrain. It can go faster, but this increases the risk of individual cars deciding to go to different destinations.
• Magnetic-only coupling by abusing the stock docking ports, which are prevented from ever connecting by "pivot" elements: parts that are placed above and below, and protrude further than, the docking ports, creating a pivot point between cars
• As Overland has already pointed out, this means all cars are passive. No braking, no powered wheels, no steering. (As a noob-cheat, the cars CAN be controlled, steered, and driven if control is switched to them. This makes it easier to get going again after some "destination disagreement" mishap)
• The locomotive is fuel cell powered
• I have dabbled with different docking port configs, usually involving multiple ports. These magnetic couplings can be hard to separate, as they never actually dock, rendering the undocking/decoupling functions of the docking ports unavailable. To ease separation of cars, they have a decoupling mechanism that uses the "deploy" function of the smallest control surface to create "spacers" that push the cars apart.
• With these very flexible couplings, and no steering on the cars, I have found that it seems to make sense to have LOW friction on the front wheels of a car (0.2), and HIGH friction on the rear wheels (1.3 or higher). The high friction in the rear helps to prevent tendencies of taking some unwanted shortcuts, and the low friction in front seems to increase a car's willingness to follow the course of the preceding one.

   

On 4.6.2016 at 6:38 PM, Overland said:

and thanks for the user who mentioned using trim..

I never realised before but we can control the speed of a rover/landtrain by using W and S with ALT for trim speeds of forward and back.

Thank you so much! I didn't know this, and this will be useful even for non-train activities.

 

On 4.6.2016 at 6:51 PM, Overland said:

Unless we want to use a remote control mod or program KOS to link multiple KOS cores..

Have you actually tried KOS? It seems that you prefer to have the entire train as one vehicle (as seen by KSP), which means you have all functionality available on all cars anyways. But would you be interested in having multiple "magnetically coupled", and thus technically separate, "vessels" respond simultaneously to throttle and brake inputs?

It happens to be the case that KOS parts are the only mod parts I have ever used. Cursory glancing at the KOS documentation suggests that one wouldn't actually need multiple KOS parts, if each car has a regular probe core. A single KOS part on the locomotive should be enough to do the job.

       

[Overland]

2 hours ago, n.b.z. said:

 

 

You have a very interesting land train.. @n.b.z.

Made all the more interesting by it having an actual prototype, im struggling to find the page now where I once saw it years ago.. one of the pages that originally started me down the path of land trains. but it detailed how in world war 1 there was a diesel electric land train used, the tractor (locomotive) provided electric generation power and the wagons ran with electric motors, it was quite successful in its own small way..

Something about each wagon also had the ability to be controled via wires/batteries so if any wagon got stuck, it could be uncoupled and driven itself out of where it was stuck..

your locomotive does look alot like this

seems from the picture it was also rail capable as well, although in all the other pictures ive seen of it (and fact that its got a steering wheel) it was trackless in general operation

so respect for you in your first adventures with trains

aye, Kerbin is an oftern overlooked flagship world.. the terrain is harsh, detailed.. beautiful and deadly.. yet its the place most people seem to be in a rush to depart in a rocket.. orbiting over all those lovely details at thousands of ms

its only once you start to explore you discover what you did and many others.. the deceptive nature of the perfectly flat KSC cleared land provides no hints to what lies beyond those mountains.. thar be dragons, and krakens.. death.. and awesomeness too.. its not all destruction

Your couplings are very interesting also, ive oftern looked for a way to couple without being one vessel, as it brings the kraken when shunting.. IVA's dont follow the cockpit their in . if theres an original one.. in that the bug ive FINALLY tracked down is  that the IVA internals themselves seem pinned to the same plane as the root part.. once you dock/undock alot of times.. the docking port becomes the root part.. and forever and then on.. you'll get your IVA view covered in fuel tanks and wheels and yuck.. for the same reason you cant have a locomotive at both ends you can switch too if the vehicle is one unit.. Eg.

 

here we have an example of what I mean and a bug thats been haunting me since 0.23 or so.. finally visible with the 1.1 view IVA from external view..

those things in the air are the IVA of the cockpits, still stuck on the same location tied to the lander (root part) despite flexing and being on the ground now..

 

Your nice exploitation of docking  port magnetics fixes alot of that without the use of mods.. and as someone who just lastnight tried to make a train with stock parts, something I havent attempted since 0.90.. finding everything so damn rigid and train-unfriendly.. you have my highest respect. your discovery helps myself and others in the growing KTP .. um.. Hype Train.. enthusiast collective

about the power of the train.. as much as I dislike doing so.. as its against railway tradition.. the changes in 1.1 to stock things and even modified things dictate that .. we cant so much be traditionally locomotive hauled train drivers.. but the best solution being to follow real world landtrain practise (big ones!)

Fully Powered Trains

All the cold war land trains had powered trains with the locomotive being the generator.. to spread the power through the vehicle, the US army overland train holds the record for the longest single vehicle.. not as a train but as one unit for that reason

 

some australian road trains have powered units seperate from the lead truck. as do trackless canetrains...

 

rails were invented to make terrain constant.. in difficult weather or terrain. the guiding aspect of it helped too... but its the lack of friction that helped the most.. example being a horse tram

 

Unfortunately trains of the land.. dont have that luxury..  the element of these beasts are powered wagons

 

M1 wheels stock are horribly underpowered.. or maybe realisticly so since their ment for mun rovers...

they have trouble conquering things without a train.. the massive rigid wheels also strangely seem to be underpowered and lack horsepower they once had

Infact my own modded wheels based off the M1s have had to have their torque increased 5 times from default.. even then they struggle with a 4 car train.. with 2 cars powered..  so I think its a mixture between current changes of stock parts.. and whats expected of them.. you might need to break with tradition somewhat..

 

with all that said though.. modified .. painted... tweaked M1 wheels do make the perfect land train wheel .. they're not buggy like the rugged wheels, they actually turn unlike them massive ones.. and with suspension set to rock hard.. torque to high.. speed to realisticly low 15 or less.. they're still by far the best thing to mod for success if you wanted to start

 

KOS, I think thats the best way we could go..id love to see it done programming wise not so much.. im happy to say this thread seems to be turning into less about overlands trains and more about the goto resource for all things land train.. this pleases me greatly

 

if youd like to put a few screenshots of your coupling system im sure  it'd help everyone.. stock is good.. while Infernal robotics docking port swivels and steering axels are all nice..being able to have blueprints to so speak of how to make a good coupling.. thats a level above a good mod.. and a credit to your self too

 

[Overland]

A little update on my own KTP Operations primarily because of my original post some pages back,

 

MichealV2.0's Puma continues to be the flagship of the new KTP operations.. not upto elcano heights yet but useful little things transporting fuel and kerbals..

Ive gone with the decision to mod my own wheels based on the M1, they'll be released in a few days referencing the squad default M1s model but textured and modified to compliment land trains.. the simple modeling also means they impact on framerate alot less than other more advanced wheels from mods.. giving longer trains.. better physics time and all round  improvements..also compatable with wheelsound mod

although not bulletproof (see post above for details)

A big aspect for me with land trains besides all the technology and mods that make them possible is the Feel of a railway.. in that eventually a train isnt just a nameless unnumbered thing released into the world but much like their realworld cousins. .every train  has to have its own number or name.. and naturally so. its own personality mechanically.. and some would say emotionally speaking

This has given rise to the need to try to repaint Micheal's puma rovers.. however the lack of any reference as to where the parts are on the texture map caused alot of confusion..

Until. a lightbulb moment, a bit of masking in paint.net and some new found skills gave life to the idea of military styled camouflage trains.. ones that didnt matter if the textures were a little off... camouflage being what it is.. did its job exactly whats on the tin.. while giving the trains a unique look with no concern if things didnt line up correctly

 

also upgrading some details like airvents.. eventually adding class numbers that became running number and depot

1xxx -- KSC1 Being a 1000 class Unit, assigned to KSC

 

Their job.. at the moment quite a simple matter of transporting kerbals, Delivering fuel with KAS pipes to mark 3 Fuel Tanks some 50km from KSC.. its taking some trips as the current trains are rather small and only hold around 4000 maximum

1003 is the heavy lifer of the fleet, being the newest locomotive type.. an 8 wheel version for increased traction, extra RTGs and a blue identification light.. eventually she'll have a custom horn and motor sound..

 

top speed of the fleet is 12-15m/s, once they reach this speed. wheels are modded to cut off torque.. thereby the RTGs generate all lost power.. only using resource on hills and starting where torque is required.. this all happens automaticly via the torque setting in the wheels configuration file cutting off at 15m/s

 

1002 & 1001 are respective sistertrains of the class.. both having similar specifications and uses.. jack of all trades..

one has australian camouflarge (1001), the other has fire/sunset inspired custom camouflarge (1002) which was originally ment to be used as just a KSC shuttle restricted to 6ms within taxiways.. too and from the launchpad .. equipt with a bell.. but now finds itself on mainline duty

One of 1001s Fuel Runs - 5000 units of Liquid Fuel delivered & Home safe

 

 

Edited June 19, 2016 by Overland

[Kerbin vonKerbal]

That's pretty impressive Overland. I keep getting side tracked with my upcoming Duna launch window and keep forgetting to make a train. 

On a side note, I'm going to change the title of this thread to "Train Discussion". 

[Overland]

Thankyou may it help many who caught the train bug

[The_Rocketeer]

Using Infernal Robotics I lately made a train with steering-bars to make the RoveMax XL3 wheels steerable. Sadly I'm away from my home machine so no pics today but the overall vehicle was a lot more like @Overland's cold-war landtrain photos. Top speed only 10m/s tho.

Speed is the biggest drawback for me at the moment. If my train can't get up to much better speeds, I can't see myself ever putting them to serious use. 10m/s is all very well from a realism perspective, but I have insufficient patience to cruise from KSC to the North Pole at those speeds, and unless I'm going to make such a grand adventure, land-trains aren't going to take off except as a curiosity afaic. < My point here being that I'm looking for ways to make them safer and faster, not that I'm giving up.

Edited June 19, 2016 by The_Rocketeer