Booots

[1.7.2] ESLD Jump Beacons Revived (1.2.0)

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Just now, Booots said:

It's fine, I was just pointing out that for the average user, one does not need Karbonite.

Righto, well, patch is there in case there's anyone else finds the requirement to be a show-stopper :) 

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1 hour ago, wile1411 said:

Congrats on being Kottabos'ed :) 

Nice spot :)  This mod never seemed to get the attention it deserved, perhaps because (tbqfh) it was never very well documented. Maybe this fixes that a little and makes it less intimidating :) 

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1 minute ago, eddiew said:

Nice spot :)  This mod never seemed to get the attention it deserved, perhaps because (tbqfh) it was never very well documented. Maybe this fixes that a little and makes it less intimidating :) 

Always nice to see a Kottabos vid in the OP of mods to provide an explanation of what the mod if about. :)

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8 minutes ago, eddiew said:

Nice spot :)  This mod never seemed to get the attention it deserved, perhaps because (tbqfh) it was never very well documented. Maybe this fixes that a little and makes it less intimidating :) 

Yeah, that's probably on me.  Perhaps showing some of the visual aids from the wiki on the first post would help?  I feel like the github wiki is actually relatively complete, just problematic in that nobody reads github wikis.  

Edited by TMarkos

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8 minutes ago, TMarkos said:

Yeah, that's probably on me.  Perhaps showing some of the visual aids from the wiki on the first post would help?  I feel like the github wiki is actually relatively complete, just problematic in that nobody reads github wikis.  

Lol, yeah, sorry bud, mostly I glaze over them - or never notice they exist because I hit the download button and close the tab :blush:   We probably assume github is for code issues and KSP forums are for KSP information...

But those of us who bothered to inspect the parts configs will have noticed there aren't actually that many and it's not hard (in sandbox at least) to put together a really, really useful network of beacons. Knowing how it can work makes it worth integrating into any play through :)  Fuelling the network is another matter, but... some of us cheat ¬_¬ 

Even if you don't use life support mods, there is a lot of potential here - and if you do use life support then a good beacon network basically removes the need to make massive, self-sustaining bases because you can deliver on demand!

Edited by eddiew

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2 minutes ago, eddiew said:

Lol, yeah, sorry bud, mostly I glaze over them - or never notice they exist because I hit the download button and close the tab :blush:   We probably assume github is for code issues and KSP forums are for KSP information...

But those of us who bothered to inspect the parts configs will have noticed there aren't actually that many and it's not hard (in sandbox at least) to put together a really, really useful network of beacons. Knowing how it can work makes it worth integrating into any play through :)  Fuelling the network is another matter, but... some of us cheat ¬_¬ 

Even if you don't use life support mods, there is a lot of potential here - and if you do use life support then a good beacon network basically removes the need to make massive, self-sustaining bases because you can deliver on demand!

Fun story, that was actually the original use case - I was getting a headache imagining how long multiple flights for base building and resupply for a USI Laythe base would take.  Something about having to forward through that much time again and again always sets my teeth on edge, because then you have to run concurrent resupply flights for your other bases or just make sure they're all sustainable/unpopulated before you do the timeskip.

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To those of you who use multiple star systems, I have an idea for a way I can give you a break on the cost of super long-distance jumps. Let me know what you think!

Introducing the SL-20 Lensing Beacon: While not a beacon per se, this part assist in transferring a vessel by acting as a space-time lens between the source and target beacons. Simply* line up the SL-20 along the jump path and the cost of the jump will be drastically reduced. For better results, have the SL-20 at least 10 000 km from the source beacon.** Then, the smaller the angle between the source beacon and its target and the source beacon and the SL-20, the greater the decrease in jump cost.

For example! A lensing beacon that is 10 000 km from the source beacon and that is 10 degrees off the transfer path will save you 8%. But wait! If it's only off by 2 degrees, it can save you 35%! Or, if you can manage to line it up exactly, you can save 50, that's right, 50% of the jump cost!!

But wait! There's more! If your lensing beacon is 60 000 km from the source beacon, you can save up to 92%! This arrangement will save you 52% even if you're off by 5 whole degrees!

* Disclaimer: lining up the three vessels may not be so simple.
** For best results, we recommend at least 50 000 km.

I'm open to balancing suggestions on the distances, angles, and savings. Is this something you might use? How realistic is it to try to line up vessels like this? Would a GUI showing alignment help when flying the lensing beacon?

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What is the use of the LB-1? Is it just an LB-100 that can transport itself? Are the costs, efficiencies, and stats the same as the LB-100?

Also, the github wiki states that the LB-1 has unparalleled efficiency in high-mass long-distance jumps, but the guide posted some time ago contradicts that by stating that the LB-1 has somewhat limited use.

 

Edited by RocketRaccoon

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23 hours ago, RocketRaccoon said:

What is the use of the LB-1? Is it just an LB-100 that can transport itself? Are the costs, efficiencies, and stats the same as the LB-100?

Yep, that's basically it. Its costs, efficiency, and stats are different. It actually uses a slightly different cost formula from the other beacons, but it ultimately is pretty close to the LB-100.

23 hours ago, RocketRaccoon said:

Also, the github wiki states that the LB-1 has unparalleled efficiency in high-mass long-distance jumps, but the guide posted some time ago contradicts that by stating that the LB-1 has somewhat limited use.

Woo! Someone's using my guide! But also, thanks for pointing out the discrepancy. I'll see about editing that. Actually, @TMarkos, are you able to do that? I think I'm still linking to your GitHub's wiki instead of building my own wiki. If you want the raw data from that guide, I can probably dig it up again.

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4 hours ago, Booots said:

Woo! Someone's using my guide! But also, thanks for pointing out the discrepancy. I'll see about editing that. Actually, @TMarkos, are you able to do that? I think I'm still linking to your GitHub's wiki instead of building my own wiki. If you want the raw data from that guide, I can probably dig it up again.

What page is that on?  I can't find anything that seems to contradict your usage window stats.  The wiki reads:

Quote
  • IB-1 Integrated Drive - A repurposed LB-100, this has been modified to allow self-transport. It has terrible efficiency for short jumps but outperforms all beacons in long-range fuel economy for heavy ships. It can be used as a target for ships jumping normally, but don't expect them to arrive anywhere near the destination ship.

Which is more-or-less true - unless you're playing with multiple stars you're not going to run into the upper limit on the IB-1 beating out the LB-100.  Perhaps change "long-range" to "interplanetary", leaving "interstellar" as the province of the LB-100?  Let me know.  Also, did you change it so the IB-1 can't be used as a target anymore?  I seem to remember seeing that somewhere.  Let me know if that's the case and I'll correct that part too.

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The die has been cast - I'm adding this to my "Nodens or Bust" GPP/GEP career save. I already have an established relationship with Karborundum, so it'll be nice to have something else to use it for.

Edited by Norcalplanner

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On 2/3/2018 at 4:52 PM, Norcalplanner said:

The die has been cast - I'm adding this to my "Nodens or Bust" GPP/GEP career save. I already have an established relationship with Karborundum, so it'll be nice to have something else to use it for.

I'm glad to hear it! If you're adding distant planets, let me know how the balance works out for you or if you find yourself needing a cheaper but slightly more difficult method for the long transfers.

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11 hours ago, Booots said:

I'm glad to hear it! If you're adding distant planets, let me know how the balance works out for you or if you find yourself needing a cheaper but slightly more difficult method for the long transfers.

It's 2.5x GPP and GEP, and a Hohman transfer to Grannus generally takes somewhere around 70 years. I've been able to get that down to 10 years with a high energy transfer, but the idea of sending a jump beacon to aid follow-on exploration and colonization efforts seems interesting. I'll let you know of any thoughts regarding balance once I get to that point in my career.

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22 minutes ago, Norcalplanner said:

It's 2.5x GPP and GEP, and a Hohman transfer to Grannus generally takes somewhere around 70 years. I've been able to get that down to 10 years with a high energy transfer, but the idea of sending a jump beacon to aid follow-on exploration and colonization efforts seems interesting. I'll let you know of any thoughts regarding balance once I get to that point in my career.

How have I only now discovered GEP? :o

Maybe its a good thing I held off on launching this career after all :) 

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1.0.0 version of the mod dont have zip download on github. last time i downloaded from the github when spacedock was down and goten 0.9 file version. so need to update the link for that as well.

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On 2/24/2018 at 1:14 PM, VirtualGaming said:

1.0.0 version of the mod dont have zip download on github. last time i downloaded from the github when spacedock was down and goten 0.9 file version. so need to update the link for that as well.

Thanks for pointing this out! It's fixed now.

Also, good news! v1.0.0 of ESLD Beacons appears to be compatible with KSP 1.4 so there shouldn't be any need for an update! Cheers!

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So my first load of Karborundum is heading back to Gael from Thalia, meaning that it's finally time to start thinking about sending up beacons. In considering the LOS and vector issues, it seems to me that putting beacons in high retrograde orbits is the way to go for interplanetary jumps.

Has anyone else done this? If so, any words of wisdom?

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23 hours ago, Norcalplanner said:

So my first load of Karborundum is heading back to Gael from Thalia, meaning that it's finally time to start thinking about sending up beacons. In considering the LOS and vector issues, it seems to me that putting beacons in high retrograde orbits is the way to go for interplanetary jumps.

Has anyone else done this? If so, any words of wisdom?

Don't understand the retrograde part... vessels emerge at the target beacon within 10km and with more or less zero relative velocity, which means this mod works like everyone wants all FTL mods to work. Even though they don't because <inexplicable "balance" reasons that don't really hold up to scrutiny>.

I only have two beacons (/stargates/devices/anemones/etc), but as sod's law would have it, my first attempt to use them was when I had a star (Grannus) in the way of the wormhole. Happy to report that the mod gracefully tells you which body is obstructing you and you can verify it on your map - then just wait for it to move a bit. Aside from the Joolian moons (or Grannusian planets) there's very little occlusion going to happen, so I'm quite surprised this is even an error case - but rather pleased that it is :) 

Higher orbits will indeed help buuut... you could just wait until you're on the other side of the planet. There's a maximum local gravity and thus a minimum altitude that works anyway - iirc for Kerbin it's not far off geostationary. You certainly can't have a beacon at 72km :D  In short it's unlikely that your local planet/moon will be obstructing you for any length of time. Worry less, FTL moar!

Edited by eddiew

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53 minutes ago, eddiew said:

Don't understand the retrograde part... vessels emerge at the target beacon within 10km and with more or less zero relative velocity, which means this mod works like everyone wants all FTL mods to work. Even though they don't because <inexplicable "balance" reasons that don't really hold up to scrutiny>.

I only have two beacons (/stargates/devices/anemones/etc), but as sod's law would have it, my first attempt to use them was when I had a star (Grannus) in the way of the wormhole. Happy to report that the mod gracefully tells you which body is obstructing you and you can verify it on your map - then just wait for it to move a bit. Aside from the Joolian moons (or Grannusian planets) there's very little occlusion going to happen, so I'm quite surprised this is even an error case - but rather pleased that it is :) 

Higher orbits will indeed help buuut... you could just wait until you're on the other side of the planet. There's a maximum local gravity and thus a minimum altitude that works anyway - iirc for Kerbin it's not far off geostationary. You certainly can't have a beacon at 72km :D  In short it's unlikely that your local planet/moon will be obstructing you for any length of time. Worry less, FTL moar!

Thanks for the reply.  The thought was that with a retrograde orbit, it would reduce the total amount of Karborundum needed because of the lower delta in velocity between the sending beacon and the receiving beacon when the two planets are closest in their respective orbits.  Can't really explain this too well without drawing something...

My thoughts will likely change once I get some experience under my belt.  KSP has been crashing more than usual lately.

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13 hours ago, Norcalplanner said:

Thanks for the reply.  The thought was that with a retrograde orbit, it would reduce the total amount of Karborundum needed because of the lower delta in velocity between the sending beacon and the receiving beacon when the two planets are closest in their respective orbits.  Can't really explain this too well without drawing something...

My thoughts will likely change once I get some experience under my belt.  KSP has been crashing more than usual lately.

I didn't even know relative velocity made a difference... I have a feeling it's a fairly small change. I'm sending stuff huge distances without caring about orbits for ~150 karborundum.

I recently fixed a very crashy KSP by simply getting a totally fresh install, then downloading and installing exactly the same mods I had before. Somewhere there was a conflict between old versions of something, but it was easier to just clear it all out and start over. KSP itself doesn't seem prone to crashes unless you're short of memory.

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I've deployed the smallest jump beacons around Gael, Iota, and Ceti.  An unmanned cargo craft successfully jumped to both moons and back again, then finally went to Iota where it will be needed.  Next up - sending mid-sized beacons to Thalia and Gratian to facilitate crew transfers and colonization efforts.  Still not sure if it makes a lot of sense to send the 900-ton Karborundum tanker through a jump gate vs. sending it the long way around, but I look forward to finding out.

This feels new and fun. :-)

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On 02/04/2018 at 5:51 AM, Norcalplanner said:

Still not sure if it makes a lot of sense to send the 900-ton Karborundum tanker through a jump gate

Make sure to read the blurb on the parts before doing this first time :D 

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44 minutes ago, eddiew said:

Make sure to read the blurb on the parts before doing this first time :D 

I've read everything in the wiki, and there seems to be some mention about it being more expensive to send Karborundum through. Anything in particular I should be paying attention to?

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1 hour ago, Norcalplanner said:

I've read everything in the wiki, and there seems to be some mention about it being more expensive to send Karborundum through. Anything in particular I should be paying attention to?

The Heisenkerb Compensator may be of particular interest.

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