Uplifting?

[daniel l.]

Is there a reason or use for humanity to technologically provide for the non technological civilizations among us already? Such as Ants and Termites or even the Small tribes of Octopi that are forming around Hawaii. Is there a reason for making them into a technological space-faring race and how would we do it?

[magnemoe]

With uplifting most are thinking of apes and other mammas. Dogs would be first as they are already used for lots of stuff and simply an smarter dog would be easier to train.
Social insects are not smart in any way they are just organized well and its no practical way to make them smart. 

[hugix]

You mean like this? 

 

 

[PB666]

29 minutes ago, magnemoe said:

With uplifting most are thinking of apes and other mammas. Dogs would be first as they are already used for lots of stuff and simply an smarter dog would be easier to train.
Social insects are not smart in any way they are just organized well and its no practical way to make them smart. 

A smarter dog is called a wolf. 

[SinBad]

David Brin would like a word with you...

 

Also, i remember reading a short story about a squid we sent to space that got its own ideas about who was in charge. Cant remember who wrote it though...

[andrewas]

Stephen Baxter, Phase Space, the actual story is Sheena 5. The character also appears in Manifold:Time.

[magnemoe]

54 minutes ago, PB666 said:

A smarter dog is called a wolf. 

Wolfs are smarter as they live in an more challenging environment. 
Uplifting is not breeding, generic engineering and perhaps implants. Should work on squids as they are pretty smart and its no problem increasing and improving their brain outside of oxygen intake. 
Sea mammals however would be simpler, same with birds but an flying bird with human intelligence would be hard even if bird brains are effective.
Insects on the other hand has very primitive and small brains, its no way you could scale it up so much as needed 

[wumpus]

19 minutes ago, magnemoe said:

Wolfs are smarter as they live in an more challenging environment. 
Uplifting is not breeding, generic engineering and perhaps implants. Should work on squids as they are pretty smart and its no problem increasing and improving their brain outside of oxygen intake. 
Sea mammals however would be simpler, same with birds but an flying bird with human intelligence would be hard even if bird brains are effective.
Insects on the other hand has very primitive and small brains, its no way you could scale it up so much as needed 

I'll see your David Brin and raise you a Douglas Hofstadter*.  Assuming you built an AI around  multi-core processors, understood it thoroughly (to the degree that AI is possible to understand), and could build it across a high-latency (and noisy) network, you could presumably uplift an insect hive (with a ton of direct genetic modification).

Obviously, this is only true if certain types of AIs eventually get created, although nVidia specifically designed the Pascal (many, many cores) to work well with certain AI tricks (neural networking) to the point that they might have crippled what is typically thought of their "main market" by removing parts that *should* be useful for their graphics cards (fp16 operations) to be a "Pascal Exclusive".  But if you somehow built an AI out of these cards, building an intelligent ant hive is a lot closer than you would think.

* David Brin is a Science Fiction writer/fully qualified scientist (well, he has a PhD.  Not sure how much he has published on that side) who wrote the "Uplift series" (in the 1980s?).  Douglas Hofstadter is a AI researcher/writer who inherited Martin Gardner's Scientific American column (as Metamagical Themas) and wrote "Godel, Escher, Bach" a brilliant if light-hearted work that hardly argued strongly for the existence of intelligent ant hills.

[Kerbart]

2 hours ago, magnemoe said:

With uplifting most are thinking of apes and other mammas. Dogs would be first as they are already used for lots of stuff and simply an smarter dog would be easier to train.

Well technically dogs were space-faring before us...

I can just see how the conversation between Ground Control and Max Woofs, first smart Labrador in space:

“Max? Max, do you read?”
“OMG! OMG! I'm so happy to hear about you! I missed you! You should be here! It's wonderful! I love it! LOVE IT! Are you coming over? Are you? When are you coming? WHEN?! WHEN?!”
(Flight controller mumbles “not this again” and downs a shot from a half-empty bottle of undisclosed “medicine water” before continuing)
“Ok Max, we went over the EVA yesterday and we want you to start at step one of the check li...”
“OMG! OMG! EVA! I love it! LOVE IT! Do you want to do EVA with me? Please? Do you? EVA! My favorite! Love it! LOVE IT! Are you...”
“The LIST, Max...”
“OMG! OMG! The list! I love the list! Love it! LOVE IT! Do you want to read the list with me? Please? Do you? The list! THE LIST! ...”

etc, etc... it is rumored that the Canine unit goes through three flight controllers per week...

Of course, it's not really that much better with cats...
“Mr. Bugles, do you read? Mr. Bugles, do you read”
“YES I heard you the first time, hooman. For crying out loud, I only slept 16 hours today. Be a bit understanding will you?”
“Yes, Mr. Bugles, of course Mr. Bugles”
“Now, can you open the air lock door for me, if you want me to EVA? Yes?”
*door opens*
“Mr Bugles, are you outside?”
“Hmmm not yet... I don't know... perhaps I'm going to stay inside today... maybe...”
“Mr Bugles, if you're not going we will close the door”
“NO NO NO! Don't close the door! I want to go outside!”
“OK... You're outside now?”
“Not yet... just looking... please hold the door for now, will you?”

While the Feline unit only hires cat lovers, each and every flight controller seems to resent cats after only two weeks...

 

[magnemoe]

58 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

Well technically dogs were space-faring before us...

I can just see how the conversation between Ground Control and Max Woofs, first smart Labrador in space:

“Max? Max, do you read?”
“OMG! OMG! I'm so happy to hear about you! I missed you! You should be here! It's wonderful! I love it! LOVE IT! Are you coming over? Are you? When are you coming? WHEN?! WHEN?!”
(Flight controller mumbles “not this again” and downs a shot from a half-empty bottle of undisclosed “medicine water” before continuing)
“Ok Max, we went over the EVA yesterday and we want you to start at step one of the check li...”
“OMG! OMG! EVA! I love it! LOVE IT! Do you want to do EVA with me? Please? Do you? EVA! My favorite! Love it! LOVE IT! Are you...”
“The LIST, Max...”
“OMG! OMG! The list! I love the list! Love it! LOVE IT! Do you want to read the list with me? Please? Do you? The list! THE LIST! ...”

etc, etc... it is rumored that the Canine unit goes through three flight controllers per week...

Of course, it's not really that much better with cats...
“Mr. Bugles, do you read? Mr. Bugles, do you read”
“YES I heard you the first time, hooman. For crying out loud, I only slept 16 hours today. Be a bit understanding will you?”
“Yes, Mr. Bugles, of course Mr. Bugles”
“Now, can you open the air lock door for me, if you want me to EVA? Yes?”
*door opens*
“Mr Bugles, are you outside?”
“Hmmm not yet... I don't know... perhaps I'm going to stay inside today... maybe...”
“Mr Bugles, if you're not going we will close the door”
“NO NO NO! Don't close the door! I want to go outside!”
“OK... You're outside now?”
“Not yet... just looking... please hold the door for now, will you?”

While the Feline unit only hires cat lovers, each and every flight controller seems to resent cats after only two weeks...

 

Nice one  Never said it would work out well
And this ends the aliens is 1500 years tread, we will meet aliens in 150 or less, yes they would be our own creations but still aliens. An AI would be more alien than an uplifted animal 
 

[LordFerret]

"Civilization" is not the proper term you want to use here (check the definition of) ... a "population" would be more fitting.

On that note; Ants? Termites?? Octopi??? We've got scores of non-technological human populations here right now, living in forests and jungles and deserts and on ice flows, etc. What about them? How would we go about including them in this technological space-faring race we're striving for?

[kerbiloid]

And kitties will be posting photos themselves.
Also they would no more require a human to open the cans.

4 hours ago, PB666 said:

A smarter dog is called a wolf. 

The smartest wolves became dogs.

5 hours ago, daniel l. said:

Ants and Termites

Things below mammals don't have enough neocortex in "brain".

Edited June 20, 2016 by kerbiloid

[Camacha]

 

I do not think dogs would make good space-faring creatures, on account of their love of going outside. Outside and space do not mix well.

 

6 hours ago, hugix said:

You mean like this? 

[video]

I still wonder who thought this was a good idea. A cat with sharp nails on a screen of a device that costs hundreds of dollars, with the animal having no conception of having to be careful?

One order of scratches coming up!

Edited June 20, 2016 by Camacha

[Scotius]

Well, cephalopods are smart, true. But they are also not built to last. To be precise, they die after their first (and only) mating season. I doubt a species with so high turnover ratio would make for an effective spacefaring civilisation.

[kerbiloid]

2 hours ago, Camacha said:

A cat with sharp nails on a screen of a device that costs hundreds of dollars, with the animal having no conception of having to be careful?

A cat will explain to that animal that it should wash its hands and cut nails before taking the pad.

5 minutes ago, Scotius said:

Well, cephalopods are smart, true. But they are also not built to last. To be precise, they die after their first (and only) mating season. I doubt a species with so high turnover ratio would make for an effective spacefaring civilisation.

They will be Krakens.

Edited June 20, 2016 by kerbiloid

[Bill Phil]

8 hours ago, PB666 said:

A smarter dog is called a wolf. 

And yet a smarter wolf is called a dog... It does, after all, cater to the dominant species on the planet. It's species is going to survive, no matter what, so long as we do. And we are very capable. Wolves, on the other hand, are too dependent on the environment. Dogs, being dependent on humans, are almost guaranteed to exist for a much longer time. Plus there's free food.

[Elthy]

I agree with LordFerret, there are a lot humans who dont have access to proper education (like free university :P), we should care about those first...

[LordFerret]

8 hours ago, Bill Phil said:

Plus there's free food.

You do realize that to cats and dogs, we're nothing but furless 2-legged food dispensers ... yes?

7 hours ago, Elthy said:

(like free university :P)

Nothing in this world is free. Somebody pays something for whatever. Giving away free things only means that someone else is paying for it. What do you do when the money runs out? (Hint: Take a look at Venezuela). You'll be eating those beloved cats and dogs.

[adsii1970]

1 minute ago, LordFerret said:

You do realize that to cats and dogs, we're nothing but furless 2-legged food dispensers ... yes?

Nothing in this world is free. Somebody pays something for whatever. Giving away free things only means that someone else is paying for it. What do you do when the money runs out? (Hint: Take a look at Venezuela). You'll be eating those beloved cats and dogs.

My grandfather was a wise old man. He died in 1984.  He didn't graduate from high school with the rest of his class in 1942; he was busy training in the Marines for the invasion of Guadalcanal... with that said, when I was 12, he told me, "there's no such thing as a free puppy, even if that's what the sign says..."

And he's right... that free puppy always has hidden costs!

However, I do have a pet cat that every once in a while, actually sees me as a companion rather than a furless 2-legged food dispenser.  It is in those moments that having a cat is quite rewarding.

[daniel l.]

2 hours ago, LordFerret said:

You do realize that to cats and dogs, we're nothing but furless 2-legged food dispensers ... yes?

Nothing in this world is free. Somebody pays something for whatever. Giving away free things only means that someone else is paying for it. What do you do when the money runs out? (Hint: Take a look at Venezuela). You'll be eating those beloved cats and dogs.

And ferrets......

[LordFerret]

59 minutes ago, daniel l. said:

And ferrets......

lol

Well there's not much meat on a ferret, about the same as dining on squirrel. Ferrets (aka "fitch") are used for gloves and coats and such (faux fur some call it). Just wait for the coming ferret uprising, they'll be demanding 'equal treatment' of cats and dogs.

[Camacha]

11 hours ago, Bill Phil said:

And yet a smarter wolf is called a dog...

You are confusing specialisation (whether it is natural or man made) with intelligence. Utilizing a succesful strategy does not make you smart. Snails are highly successful, because they flood the environment with large numbers. Yet no one with any sense will claim they are smarter than whales or elephants.

 

3 hours ago, LordFerret said:

You do realize that to cats and dogs, we're nothing but furless 2-legged food dispensers ... yes?

To cats, yes. Those still are mostly solitary creatures. Dogs are pack animals that intrinsicly understand the value in sticking together and caring for each other. 

[Majorjim!]

12 hours ago, Bill Phil said:

And yet a smarter wolf is called a dog... It does, after all, cater to the dominant species on the planet. It's species is going to survive, no matter what, so long as we do. And we are very capable. Wolves, on the other hand, are too dependent on the environment. Dogs, being dependent on humans, are almost guaranteed to exist for a much longer time. Plus there's free food.

The issue here is the definition of the word 'smarter'.

[LordFerret]

2 hours ago, Camacha said:

Snails are highly successful, because they flood the environment with large numbers. Yet no one with any sense will claim they are smarter than whales or elephants.

Careful.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/09/120927091926.htm

[Camacha]

6 minutes ago, LordFerret said:

Careful.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/09/120927091926.htm

Until someone does the same with whales, we will be none the wiser