Dizzle

Can anyone else not play without KER?

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Seriously, I have no idea how I played this game before I got KER. Before I went to Duna and back without it, but now I struggle to even get into orbit if I can't get a delta-V readout. I mean, I can get into orbit, but everything is going to be way overbuilt.

 

Edit: I like how the forum explains acronyms when you mouse over them.

Edited by Dizzle

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You should try to get off your addiction to KER.  You use it as a crutch instead of a tool; you have crippled your legs by using it.  That is not good for you.

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Sure, I use Mechjeb instead. Nicer user interface overall, IMO (though the KER HUD is nice).

Just about the only thing KER has that MJ hasn't is the biome readout.

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Nothing wrong with using it, as it's a personal choice, but I do find it annoying sometimes (tend to have too many windows open) so I'm working on an external program that will parse a craft file and give dv as well as much other info as this seems more appropriate to me personally as a compromise between not having the info and having it all the time (but I still think KSP should have a dv readout in the hanger)--it's just too tempting to rely on it if you have it installed--I've even, shock and horror, had it set some nodes for me :( .

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3 minutes ago, jwenting said:

Sure, I use Mechjeb instead. Nicer user interface overall, IMO (though the KER HUD is nice).

Just about the only thing KER has that MJ hasn't is the biome readout.

MechJeb has Current Biome readout. It's just not set by default in any window.

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2 minutes ago, jwenting said:

Sure, I use Mechjeb instead. Nicer user interface overall, IMO (though the KER HUD is nice).

Just about the only thing KER has that MJ hasn't is the biome readout.

Actually KER has a biome readout

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I use both.

Mechjeb because it has autopilot functions.
KER overall because you don't need to add parts to your vessel in order to use it.
On some very complicated ships with many seperatble modules I may choose to not use mechjeb and be on stock SAS autopilot with KER interface as for some designs I would need multiple mechjeb modules. Ofcourse this is exclusive to only a few of my designs. But for this reasoning I see use in both of them. But I prefer mechjeb overall. I do like KERs stockalike interface over mechjeb and mechjeb stock GUI isn't challenging it imho.

I can play without completely in terms of piloting. But I do need KER or Mechjeb in the VAB to know my vessel specifications so yes in one way or another I do need it. I'm not willing to use formulas to calculate my Dv readout i.e. especially on complicated vessel designs. As for that, I think nobody does. Because even if your a math god, KSP is about playing and your not going to do all the calculations yourself if you plan on building anything complicated.

Mun/Minmus designs have become so routine, both in VAB/SPH building and piloting that I can safely say I can play without KER (mechjeb) Completely!
But I don't go to Mun/Minmus these days. So I think a more accurate question would be. "What can you build and where can you go without any of both mods?"

Edited by Vaporized Steel

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I do everything manually.  So... I guess I can live without it?

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I visited all planets and moons without any mods, even got down to Tylo and back which was my biggest achievement in this game so far. The only thing I didn't do was getting back from eve. That was all stock and at that point I thought *now* I can try to make the game a bit less try and a bit more science. KER is really a nice tool for planning and I it really helps with some flaws of the stock game (for example, you can see the delta-v from a given stage in map view).

 

Mechjeb on the other had felt like plain cheating. Sure, single player and all but that tool is so powerful that it in fact plays the game for you. I slapped some parts together and send it to duna, it was trivial and remarkable what mechjeb can do with that junkship. At that point I dropped mechjeb from the game. KER on the other hand, don't want to miss it, to be true.

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I use mechjeb, love the advanced transfer to other planets. it can also be used to go between Mun and Minmus or moons in the Jool system, also to intercept asteroids and stuff in a parent SOI

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Of course. There's not much KER does that I don't know how to do myself. I learnt how to calculate Delta-V and TWR myself before I even installed mods and know the formulas off the top of my head. The stock game gives most of the general information, just not in as clear and unified a fashion. Probably the biggest drawback to no KER is I'll be inefficient at landing without having the clear display of altitude above terrain.

There are a few mods I consider virtually essential. I can't plan sophisticated gravity assists without Precise Node or another mod for proper node editing, I won't make aeroplanes without FAR, and my current main save relies on its modded solar system. KER is not on that virtually essential list for me though - while I like it and use it, I could manage without it.

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I can maybe get to LKO without KER... after a bit of trial and error. 

But I choose not to. I want to know if a mission will work on paper before it launches.

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10 minutes ago, eddiew said:

I can maybe get to LKO without KER... after a bit of trial and error. 

But I choose not to. I want to know if a mission will work on paper before it launches.

There is nothing wrong with that. Just play how you like to. 

I also usually use KER but some times i play without it and usually i don't have enough fuel or way too much fuel but it is fun either way.

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I play only stock, so theres that.


Testing the hover thing: MJ is the greatest basketball player of all time.

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@Dizzle I established some rules of thumb for quick builds, KER / MJ instabilities and stock stuff:

Payload + drymass pusher stage - drymass pusher stage tanks = Fueltank pusher stage wet mass      gives about 2km/s average atmo/vac dV

plain english: just use the stock mass readout to get the mass of your payload including drymass (without tanks) of the stage you're building, add fueltanks until you double that number and you have about 2000 m/s deltaV. Add half that much tanks to get about 1km/s. For atmo the dV is a bit lower, for vacuum it might be higher, depending on engine Isp. 

for TWR > 1 just take the last 0 off the engine's thrust and have that number be higher (for liftoff with a nice margin) than the total mass  of what it is pushing (of course including itself).

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I like me my KER. To be quite honest, the most important thing for me is usually the HUD orbital values (specifically apoapsis) so I don't have to jump between flight window and map view during ascent.

I've actually created a spreadsheet that can do the VAB math for me, but adding parts to the configuration involves inserting lines, copying and pasting, which is a little awkward; I'd like to add "add part/delete part" macros to make that smoother, but I don't understand how to spawn/edit/delete form contols by code yet. So I can do it "by hand," but it's a lot easier to just use the mod, especially since I've already proven to myself I've got the math down.

However, I did discover VOID while waiting for KER to update last time, and while KER has better flight info windows, I may like VOID better in the VAB, since you can specify body (for T/W) and atmospheric condition (for Isp) by stage, rather than globally. A little torn. Do KER and VOID play well together, or do they stomp on each other's toes?

 

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You can specify body and atmosphere height in VAB with KER, I use the mods myself, and that function is extremely useful.

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The one time I really notice if I've not got it is launches, the Ap height displayed on the HUD is really useful instead of switching to map view to see it.

dV display in the VAB is useful but if I haven't got it it just means I end up being a little more experimental in that I'll launch and revert if it doesn't go well. 

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5 minutes ago, JoeNapalm said:

I could. I don't know why I would, however.

Maybe you like the sense of gut clinching uncertainty to last from launch all the way to returning home? :)

Personally I'm a planner. I like to know a mission works on paper, and the only question is whether I execute it correctly. And probably something to do with aerodynamics. 

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I can play without KER. I can solve the Delta-V equation to tell me *exactly* how many tanks of x fuel i need to take to get someplace. 

But I'm lazy and don't have all day to pore over spreadsheets, etc. doing algebra and rewriting the Delta-V equation.

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8 minutes ago, eddiew said:

Maybe you like the sense of gut clinching uncertainty to last from launch all the way to returning home? :)

Personally I'm a planner. I like to know a mission works on paper, and the only question is whether I execute it correctly. And probably something to do with aerodynamics. 

 

Funny thing is, I don't use KER that way, at all.

As I've often said, I just eyeball everything. To me, that just feels like Tao Te Kerbal. Build it, and see if it works. After all these many hours, it's pretty satisfying that it typically works pretty well...and when it fails, that's usually even more entertaining. :0.0:

I look at KER in the VAB/SPH, but only as a rough guide -- "Yeah, that looks like a lotta DV!" or "Huh, that change did/didn't improve my DV by a lot." I couldn't quote you the exact numbers for DV to even get to orbit, honestly, but I'm loathe to build anything without KER.

In a very Kerbal way, the instrumentation in KER makes me happy because I can see all the "science!" going on. If there's info that is suddenly important to me, I can toggle a couple things and bring it up -- which I should be able to do.

But it's like all the fancy gauges and displays in my car -- I LIKE that they're there, but only like four ever really matter.

 

-Jn-

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