CKAN Discussion Continutation

[TeddyDD]

@RoverDude Well ok. I agree. Lets focus on official, op-out repos now. We can think how improve user experience for advanced users later.

 

Edit: Gods, this forum hates me. I want everything to be markdown ;=; How to reference user?

Edited June 26, 2016 by TeddyDD

[Laie]

5 hours ago, blu3wolf said:

Your reasons for giving an explicit permission to do something are largely irrelevant.

With all due respect... many KSP mods are "contingency FOSS". Noone's gonna monetize them, and if the author vanishes without a trace somebody else can step up and take over. That's cool. But until that happens, quite a few devs feel as author, claim ownership of their work, and will be angry if you take it from them.

Telling them they've chosen the wrong license, running roughshod over their demands and thumbing your nose at them (neener! neener!) is no way of securing their ongoing cooperation.

An orphaned mod won't help anybody. While the FOSS licence makes it legally possibly for somebody else to continue the project, it doesn't guarantee that a suitable person will be found. Especially not if the atmosphere in the community is positively acidic.

Edited June 26, 2016 by Laie

[mjl1966]

6 hours ago, blu3wolf said:

I read the rest of the post, and your definition of workable and mine do not align. That gives me a hell of an incentive to see what things could fit into the spokes.

Alrighty.  Well, I dare say Sarbian's broomstick is heftier than yours. If that's really the way you want to play this out.

[RoverDude]

1 minute ago, TeddyDD said:

@RoverDude Well ok. I agree. Lets focus on official, op-out repos now. We can think how improve user experience for advanced users later.

Agreed.  Thanks.

Feel free to ping me off line, I have some thoughts on how to make this happen without it breaking down what we've spent the past few days trying to sort.

[Malah]

Hello, I haven't write something on this before because I haven't seen all the headache that you had with CKAN. At the reading of the firsts pages, I thought that it was quite normal, some modders tried to push some modifications on CKAN's policy which has some mistakes for modders (and perhaps for me).

When I see that @RoverDude has de-indexed all his mod without high dependencies mods, I thought the method was quite good to express his disappointment without affect others modders, and for this I say a huge THANKS, this method is praiseworthy.

But some hours after I see that the biggest dependency on KSP modding is de-indexed which de-indexed many others mods. Thanks for that but I don't mind about CKAN's policy, I don't mind that I will need to push my extra tiny useless mods on an other license if in the future I don't want to work with CKAN.

Sorry for that but you have forced CKAN to automatically de-indexed some of my mods, I never tell someone to do this, I don't want this. Perhaps I haven't follow all the history but @sarbian why you haven't requested to de-index of MechJeb, Crew Manifest, Graphic Memory Monitor or the others? The time perhaps? If it's the time, why ModuleManager first?

Some hours ago I thought this "strike" was legitimate and CKAN was dis-respectful of modders but now, in my mind, it's modders which are disrespectful of all the work done on CKAN, all the investment which have been done for this to work. It needs some work to be better it's sure but the little pull that will stop this "strike" needs you to put 50% of mods indexed in CKAN down, just because you can?

You have used all the force you have just because the CKAN's policy isn't as you want? There are other solutions to speak with a closed community ... This sort of drama accurately reflect the maturity of a community. It's sad.

[cantab]

56 minutes ago, nobodyhasthis2 said:

[stuff]

 

In short, CKAN is devoid of competent project management. Now we know. Thanks

[mjl1966]

4 hours ago, GavinZac said:

I had written quite a bit about attitudes on both sides of the fence here - I mostly take issue with actual, straightforward outright insults being applied to people who have jobs to do and kids to raise and therefore would like a mod manager to do the work for them, apparently regardless of whether or not they're asking for support from someone - but I deleted it as unproductive. It appears the 'community' has reached something of a detente. Yay?

But some of the blame for this event also has to fall on Squad. When did it become apparent that mod support was going to be a key selling point of this game? Three years ago? Four years ago? They should have taken ownership of this long ago. They ruled out Steam Workshop support in the project's infancy because they didn't want to 'fragment the userbase', yet now they don't even really support their own in-house updater. Later they said they didn't want to invoke the Steam Workshop because users easily installing mods would mean they could easily install malicious mods - yet Cities:Skylines, a game with three times as many players right now, manages it just fine with the same modding methodology and game engine. They then instead signed some sort of deal with Curse, who still haven't provided client support more than 2 years later and have completely failed to engage the community. Neither Workshop nor Curse come anywhere close to 'perfection' but they inarguably meet the criteria of being opt-in for modders and unemotionally predictable for end users, but neither are options.

Ultimately, and episodes like this and KerbalStuff and the rejection of Curseforge have proven it again and again: Squad should have by now realised modding and the management thereof was too important to them to leave to the whims and moods and feelings of individuals. As much as I've just been complaining about the modding community (givers and receivers), it's astonishing and a credit to the spirit of modding that it has remained active at all when you have people who really, really like playing a game arguing instead about software licenses and courtesies.

out - freaking- standing post.  Dead on.

[TeddyDD]

@Malah Nah, don't worry, with all policy changes and proposal to split the repo into stable/stagin some downtime is inevitable. Only thing that really made me angry is this thread:

I'm not sure if @passinglurker tried force CKAN to change policy this way or this is supposed to be way to kill CKAN by unjustified censorship and blocking any possibility to talk about issue. Either way this is pathetic.

Edited June 26, 2016 by TeddyDD

[nobodyhasthis2]

53 minutes ago, cantab said:

In short, CKAN is devoid of competent project management. Now we know. Thanks

If you say you now know there is no lead developer. That is correct.

If you say no competent project management. Not exactly true..

It is actually very fast fixing most metadata problems and those that need coding have workarounds. Whilst actually coding any changes takes too long because of lack of programming experience. Trouble is most end users just don't know how it works. They think it is all down to mod authors. CKAN people that can help are the last to know. 

Seriously there is a often a shortage of NetKan bug reports. Rather than too many to handle. Feedback goes into forums in error by end users an has to be farmed back into Github where it belongs.

( There only two people on the forum that might disagree. Sorry to both of you.) 

Edited June 26, 2016 by nobodyhasthis2

[nobodyhasthis2]

10 hours ago, TeddyDD said:

@Malah Nah, don't worry, with all policy changes and proposal to split the repo into stable/stagin some downtime is inevitable. Only thing that really made me angry is this thread: (link removed for brevity)

The thread referred to is actually kind of funny in an ironic way. As it blocks anyone raising objections to CKAN. Or anyone that wants to help mod authors get satisfaction. Every time someone posts to support a ban on the discussion. By their own logic. Has just proved themselves to be a hypocrite. For talking about the subject that they want to ban from discussion. It is a Monty python topic really.

I though the actual official response was very good.

Edited June 27, 2016 by nobodyhasthis2

[passinglurker]

38 minutes ago, TeddyDD said:

@Malah Nah, don't worry, with all policy changes and proposal to split the repo into stable/stagin some downtime is inevitable. Only thing that really made me angry is this thread:

I'm not sure if @passinglurker tried force CKAN to change policy this way or this is supposed to be way to kill CKAN by unjustified censorship and blocking any possibility to talk about issue. Either way this is pathetic.

yeah well I wasn't exactly thrilled by some of the ckan contributors arrogant disrespect for the communities most valuable volunteers either pal

fun fact there is a kerbal modding site who's name is expunged from this forum for the same breach of ethics that have been leveled against ckan (fetching users mods without consent knowledge or permission and doing so in such a way that it screws up and causes authors support headaches) thankfully ckan staff listened to reason (eventually) so no such measure is needed anymore.

 

but had ckan doubled down on its old policy this could have been a very different story so lets just be happy politas's plan to defuse the situation worked rather than sling mud.

[phoenix_ca]

6 hours ago, Stone Blue said:

Perhaps maybe requesting a temporary lockdown on the thread might be viable at this point?   maybe 12hrs...?? 24hrs...???

 

Sorry. As I stated in my OP, I explicitly waived that privilege. If moderators here want to do such a temp lock, that's for them to decide. I won't request it.

 

Edit: I will add, the response from the CKAN team has been good, as has the mod authors' to their response. Hell, even @RoverDude and I aren't slinging mud at each other on GitHub.

I think cooler heads will prevail. Even if those heads were on fire a day ago. Maybe sleeping on it helped temper everyone's mood. Hell if I know.

Edited June 27, 2016 by phoenix_ca

[GavinZac]

6 hours ago, Randazzo said:

Nope. Full tilt off the tracks right here.

If a player makes some arbitrary decision (and yes, that's all it is) to hate Curse, that's on the player. Everything set up outside Squad's official mod hosting partner is precisely 0% Squads fault.

"Squad's official mod hosting partner" provides precisely none of the functionality I was talking about, despite it being within their capability to do so. All Curse is without the Curse client is another download catalogue. It is a place to put files, an alternative to "med1afir3" or dropbox but with an index. That is not good enough. I don't know why the userbase refused to use it over the other alternatives - Spacedock and KerbalStuff - but there is zero mod install management from Curse, and Squad has never even mentioned the idea of any sort of mod management inside the game. Of course this is partly Squad's fault. They have not caused anyone's direct actions in this thread but this thread should never really have had to happen because CKAN should never really have had to exist.

[SingABrightSong]

Glad to see that things are being worked out here. I have to say, though, the suggestions of blacklisting CKAN from the forums wouldn't be effective in blocking out its use, especially among the unversed. I downloaded CKAN before signing up here, for example, because the program is recommended in a May 2015 PCGamer article(Hyperlink).

[Stone Blue]

2 hours ago, SingABrightSong said:

Glad to see that things are being worked out here. I have to say, though, the suggestions of blacklisting CKAN from the forums wouldn't be effective in blocking out its use, especially among the unversed. I downloaded CKAN before signing up here, for example, because the program is recommended in a May 2015 PCGamer article(Hyperlink).

Right... However, i think (I could be wrong), the gist of blacklisting it on the forums, would be to at least prevent the slew & flood of CKAN support requests getting dumped on mod release threads...Which is one of, if not THE biggest issue with modders...

[blu3wolf]

Which according to modders, it would not do. Its been asserted (likely with some accuracy) that folks seeking support would emulate underground win64 users, and take efforts to hide their use of CKAN.

By the by, you mean for, not with. As a courtesy Im going to avoid speculating here on the issues with modders vice for modders.

[politas]

13 hours ago, blu3wolf said:

Yes, users not understanding things is the fault of CKAN, Im aware. Incidentally, Napster was materially different, and there is not corresponding legal precedent to be drawn from that case. In the case of CKAN, it only points users to where YOU personally, the modder, released your work for download by all..

You may believe this, but it is not true. CKAN does more than simply download mods. It also scripts the installation process, and draws dependencies that are included in a mod's zip file from a different and potentially incompatible source. It can also leave important parts of mods out from being installed. For most mods, the installation is simple enough that it causes no issues, but for complex mods with dependencies that change over time, it can have a serious impact. This causes headaches for both the modders and CKAN's users.

[blu3wolf]

Immaterial, in the case of how it relates to Napsters legal defense.

 

The scripting of the installation is a machine readable version of the same instructions given to humans on the mod release page.

Drawing dependencies from the original author of that mod is a key feature of CKAN, something widely advertised as well.

[Greenfire32]

First off, let me preface this by stating I am in no way one of the heavy mod users and have zilch in knowledge about any of this. Secondly, am I correct in understanding that CKAN is basically a Mod Manager similar in function to that of, say, Minecraft's ATLauncher for various mod packs?

If that is the case, and CKAN is indeed "breaking" (for lack of a better term) installs for an overwhelming majority to the point where the community is basically discussing whether or not to burn it at the stake, why is the community acting like CKAN is the end-all be-all of Mod Managing?

Why is this idea that mods can not be distributed without CKAN so prevalent? I mean, sure, I get the appeal of having an easy to use interface that tells me which mods are compatible with other mods, but if it doesn't work, then it doesn't work. Why is CKAN perceived as being the only option? Has the modding scene behaved not unlike a market of sorts where products that work succeed and products that don't...fail?

It shouldn't matter if CKAN ads list of mods to a "compatibility" checker with or without the modder's approval. The developer of any given mod is not responsible for anything CKAN does or does not. If CKAN wants to shoot itself in the foot, why do modders feel like they're being brought down with the ship? Why is threatening to remove a mod from CKAN even considered a back-to-the-wall option in the first place?

I guess I just don't understand why there's this perceived connection of success or failure. Like somehow CKAN's actions is causing Chatterer's (random mod that I selected) success or failure. Again, I'm not very big on the modding scene, but much how I find it hard to believe that Minecraft's "Biomes O' Plenty" mod is entirely dependent on the success of Minecraft's "Feed The Beast" modpack (which is easily downloaded through Minecraft's ATLauncher mod manager), I find it VERY hard to believe that Chatterer's success as a mod depends on the CKAN mod manager.

If the community is so up in arms about this, shouldn't CKAN as a whole just...fail? Why is there such an uproar and this notion that "there can be no other way than CKAN, but CKAN doesn't work so we're all screwed"?

And I feel like a lot of this outrage is stemming from user's trying to get tech support from Modders when in reality it's the CKAN mod that's breaking things and not the individual mods. In that case, many many many Modders are already denying any kind of tech support for their mods unless you follow their criteria (post your specs, post your log, etc etc). Is it really such a stretch to simply add that no tech support will be given if a user is using a known broken mod (CKAN)?

Edited June 27, 2016 by Greenfire32

[blu3wolf]

CKAN works fine, most of the time. The issue stems from when it fails, a portion of users notifying the wrong people that it failed - usually the modders whose mod it broke, who likely had nothing to do with it being on CKAN in the first place.

It is this question of support that is such a tipping point, for modders. Its not an overwhelming majority of users for whom it breaks - nor a majority of modders who take issue with pointing mistaken users to where they should be, either. Just a vocal minority.

Edited June 27, 2016 by blu3wolf

[passinglurker]

@Greenfire32 its a case of vocal minority vs, vocal minority

On the mod author side(who are a minority to begin with) most bugs are experienced by popular and dependency heavy mods where there are many eager beavers trying to submit new accidentally flawed metadata soon after a mod update which users then download which results in widespread broken installs for those users who live on the bleeding edge. its not everyone but its enough to flood an author with enough support requests that aren't his fault when he's trying to look for bugs in his new update that it becomes a major time consuming pain. Time they lose to these ckan bugs is what the authors are complaining about here not distribution and success the size of their fanbase is for many a secondary concern. the time loss issue is then compounded by the fact that until this weekend it was hard to opt out of CKAN unless they make thier mod all rights reserved which many don't want because they want thier mod to out live them should they leave the community or get hit by a bus. 

On the user side you have the few people who somehow use this thing for anywhere from 10's to 100's of mods and many think numbers as low as 10 or 20 are utterly unmanageable without automated tools they don't want this threatened so they are very vocal in defending the former status quo.

Edited June 27, 2016 by passinglurker

[theimportantperson]

16 minutes ago, blu3wolf said:

CKAN works fine, most of the time. The issue stems from when it fails, a portion of users notifying the wrong people that it failed - usually the modders whose mod it broke, who likely had nothing to do with it being on CKAN in the first place.

It is this question of support that is such a tipping point, for modders.

I also think (as a former CKAN user) that it's played at least a moderate roll in exposing the layman to some of the more interesting niche mods and combinations (RO, SETI, ETT, etc.) Not that large userbase is the be all and end all for modders but I think that it's had a roll in enriching the community in a certain way, even if some may not want to admit it.  Although I don't mod myself or use CKAN anymore so what do I know?

[blu3wolf]

Id like an apology for that. That, or you show me where I claimed mod authors are to blame for bugs in CKAN.

 

My 1.1.2 install had 180 mods on it. My 1.1.3 install is presently clean, and will stay that way until CKAN is in proper working order. @Passinglurker if you cannot be accurate in your malignations then simply stay quiet. 

[Greenfire32]

6 minutes ago, passinglurker said:

@Greenfire32 its a case of vocal minority vs, vocal minority

On the mod author side most bugs are experienced by popular and dependency heavy mods where there are many eager beavers trying to submit new accidentally flawed metadata soon after a mod update which users then download which results in widespread broken installs for those users who live on the bleeding edge. its not everyone but its enough to flood an author with enough support requests that aren't his fault when he's trying to look for bugs in his new update that it becomes a major time consuming pain. Time they lose to these ckan bugs is what the authors are complaining about here not distribution and success the size of their fanbase is for many a secondary concern. the time loss issue is then compounded by the fact that until this weekend it was hard to opt out of CKAN unless they make thier mod all rights reserved which many don't want because they want thier mod to out live them should they leave the community or get hit by a bus. 

On the user side you have the few people who somehow use this thing for anywhere from 10's to 100's of mods and many think numbers as low as 10 or 20 are utterly unmanageable without automated tools they don't want this threatened so they are very vocal in defending the former status quo.

That...actually that explains it rather nicely and succinctly. I'm impressed. After two threads and 15 pages I really didn't expect to ever really know what is going on with this.

 

Edited June 27, 2016 by Greenfire32

[passinglurker]

1 minute ago, blu3wolf said:

 

Id like an apology for that. That, or you show me where I claimed mod authors are to blame for bugs in CKAN.

 

I'll accept when I make a mistake I read your sentence wrong sorry I have edited that part out