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13 hours ago, TeddyDD said:

How to reference user?

Use an @ sign @TeddyDD

4 hours ago, blu3wolf said:

On the subject of vocal minorities - CKAN users is not really a minority... for instance, about twenty thousand installs of RO are queued through CKAN every time KSP updates.

CKAN users actively having a say in this discussion  - very much a vocal minority. CKAN users affected by the outcome of this discussion - not a minority.

So, let's see.  while actually unknown, there are an estimated >1,000,000 copies of KSP sold.  Which makes your 20,000 installs about 2%.  Sure seems like a minority to me

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11 minutes ago, Malah said:

And he hasn't de-indexed his other mod ...

That is still his decision

He also asked to relist mm if you missed that

Which, again, was his choice

 

Thank god ckan now is listening to feedback. I am going to leave it at that.

Have a nice day everybody.

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8 minutes ago, Sigma88 said:

Thank god ckan now is listening to feedback. I am going to leave it at that.

And in the future you will again take over the dependencies mods, just because you thinks your cause is just?

Edited by Malah
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3 minutes ago, Malah said:

And in the future you will again take over the dependencies mods, just because you thinks your cause is just?

He didn't take anything over.  Go and research the whole story and if you still feel the same way and think the likelihood of one of your dependencies being pulled from CKAN in the future is more than you are happy with, then stop using those dependencies.

Has the temporary delisting of MM actually caused you significant hassle?  If so, then you should blame your users for not complaining in the right place and CKAN for not implementing the dependency checking sensibly so users can manually install a dependency and then have mods that depend on it show up in the listing.

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5 minutes ago, Padishar said:

He didn't take anything over.  Go and research the whole story and if you still feel the same way and think the likelihood of one of your dependencies being pulled from CKAN in the future is more than you are happy with, then stop using those dependencies.

Has the temporary delisting of MM actually caused you significant hassle?  If so, then you should blame your users for not complaining in the right place and CKAN for not implementing the dependency checking sensibly so users can manually install a dependency and then have mods that depend on it show up in the listing.

The former is clearly not his users, else he would be just as irked at CKAN (or is just a more reasonable modder). The latter is not feasible, because there is no way to actually verify the version of most mods manually installed. One reason that there has been not much luck with AD mods and managed ones.

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8 minutes ago, Padishar said:

He didn't take anything over.  Go and research the whole story and if you still feel the same way and think the likelihood of one of your dependencies being pulled from CKAN in the future is more than you are happy with, then stop using those dependencies.

Has the temporary delisting of MM actually caused you significant hassle?  If so, then you should blame your users for not complaining in the right place and CKAN for not implementing the dependency checking sensibly so users can manually install a dependency and then have mods that depend on it show up in the listing.

It's not because he can do it he needs to do it. You all have said this thing against CKAN for his policy, I say this against the temporary dependencies delisting and the futures dependencies delisting. Again why temporary delist ModuleManager and not MechJeb no one can respond? @RoverDude hasn't delist his dependencies mods ...

This thread is a really bad faith.

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7 minutes ago, blu3wolf said:

The former is clearly not his users, else he would be just as irked at CKAN (or is just a more reasonable modder). The latter is not feasible, because there is no way to actually verify the version of most mods manually installed. One reason that there has been not much luck with AD mods and managed ones.

This thread just goes around and around, but I just wanted to chime in at this point  to point out to you your comment is wrong. It is completely feasible and I can think of plenty of ways to design a mechanism to know what version of a mod is installed manually or automatic (AVC does it already). It's just that currently CKAN does not have any of these implemented in its current design.

Edited by JPLRepo
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Just now, Malah said:

It's not because he can do it he needs to do it. You all have said this thing against CKAN for his policy, I say this against the temporary dependencies delisting and the futures dependencies delisting. Again why temporary delist ModuleManager and not MechJeb no one can respond? @RoverDude hasn't delist his dependencies mods ...

This thread is a really bad faith.

I can't speak for @sarbian, but I do know that if I got cheesed off about something to the point of hitting the nuclear button, I'd make sure I hit the nuclear button and not the "minor inconvenience" button.

I don't know how long you have been following this, but the issue has been brewing for months. Some people have been predicting fallout like this for just as long. It didn't just happen, there was plenty of warning.

Fortunately it seems that since a couple of the biggest modders have stood up and forced the issue, we're going to see some change, and in a good way. As far as end users go, normal service will be resumed shortly.

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6 minutes ago, JPLRepo said:

This thread just goes around and around, but I just wanted to chime in at this point  to point out to you your comment is wrong. It is completely feasible and I can think of plenty of ways to design a mechanism to know what version of a mod is installed manually or automatic (AVC does it already). It's just that currently CKAN does not have any of these implemented in its current design.

AVC does so by means of a config file included with the mod. Certainly been cases where that doesnt work, due to the modder failing to update the file, or updating it with faulty data. CKAN does have a robust mechanism to know what version of a mod is installed - provided that it installed the mod. Otherwise, all bets are off.

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12 minutes ago, blu3wolf said:

AVC does so by means of a config file included with the mod. Certainly been cases where that doesnt work, due to the modder failing to update the file, or updating it with faulty data. CKAN does have a robust mechanism to know what version of a mod is installed - provided that it installed the mod. Otherwise, all bets are off.

This is pointless. You just counter every argument. You are letting your emotions cloud your judgement. And it's been going on for hours/days: I said I can think of several ways and gave the example of one way it is done today. You really want to do it properly? Reflect the dll assembly version numbers and do it that way. That's not the point. You said it wasn't feasible. I simply pointed out that Statement is not true. Anyway I'm done. Have a nice day.

Edited by JPLRepo
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15 minutes ago, technicalfool said:

I can't speak for @sarbian, but I do know that if I got cheesed off about something to the point of hitting the nuclear button, I'd make sure I hit the nuclear button and not the "minor inconvenience" button.

I don't know how long you have been following this, but the issue has been brewing for months. Some people have been predicting fallout like this for just as long. It didn't just happen, there was plenty of warning.

Fortunately it seems that since a couple of the biggest modders have stood up and forced the issue, we're going to see some change, and in a good way. As far as end users go, normal service will be resumed shortly.

It's what I want to read, thanks :)

For me the problem begin at the start of this thread, and my angry begin when ModuleManager has been delist without really warning.

But my other question about futures dependencies delist is again here... In the future, I'm quite sure we will re-see this sort of drama, we have seen it so many time here, 64 bits, kerbalstuff, curse, and now CKAN, it's always the same things ...

Edited by Malah
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Just now, Malah said:

It's what I want to read, thanks :)

For me the problem begin at the start of this thread, and my angry begin when ModuleManager has been delist without really warning.

This is misplaced anger, IMO. Sarbian requested metadata describing the mod he maintains be deleted from the CKAN. The concern should still be with the CKAN maintainers, for acceding to the request.

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1 hour ago, linuxgurugamer said:

So, let's see.  while actually unknown, there are an estimated >1,000,000 copies of KSP sold.  Which makes your 20,000 installs about 2%.  Sure seems like a minority to me

Only if you assume that 100% of users use mods (many dont), and that those that do use CKAN (some dont).

Still; You, one person. RO CKAN users, 20K people. Given the scope of the discussion, literally everyone in it is a vocal minority.

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1 hour ago, blu3wolf said:

The former is clearly not his users, else he would be just as irked at CKAN (or is just a more reasonable modder). The latter is not feasible, because there is no way to actually verify the version of most mods manually installed. One reason that there has been not much luck with AD mods and managed ones.

Hmmm... a more reasonable modder, because he seems to be on "your side"?...

And yes, there IS a very good, current, way to verify the version of most mods manually installed: its called .version files, and KSP AVC...

The .version files were started, and standardized, by input from the community... It is unfortunate that those who put together CKAN, did not get, or listen to, valuable input from an important segment of the KSP community, during its development...

HOWEVER, that seems to now be largely irrelevant, as things seem to be positively working out, from this point on...

So can we all please try to focus on the GOOD that has FINALLY come of a lengthy, in-depth, and sometimes heated CKAN discussion?

At this point, I think its counter-productive to KEEP POINTING FINGERS, AND REHASHING OLD ARGUMENTS....Obviously, there are people on both "sides" (and I hate that we even have to refer to, or "take sides" in this issue), who will NEVER change their opinions, at least agree to disagree, or at least stop bringing up (hopefully) now irrelevant arguments and accusations, now that things seem to be working out...

How about everyone just chill, and see what happens from here on out?

I'm sure things are still far from perfect, but at least if they now get better, and both "sides" realise just how much "power" each side wields, hopefully future issues can be worked out without there having to be a "strike"...

And those who think the modders who were pushed into this "strike" are uncivilized, immoral, or selfish... Just remember how you all got decent living wages, a 5 day/40 hr work week, vacations, sick/personal time, medical benefits, retirement/pensions, safety standards, etc....

You should all be thankful this seems to be working out VERY quickly, and that one of the most vocal modders on the issue, RoverDude, while he can be a hard-*** sometimes, and firm in his stance, and I know a lot of people dont like his attitude sometimes, if HE can be reasonable, calm, and not hold a grudge, and pledge right up front, that if things change for the better from the CKAN people, even a bit, that he has no problem working with them, and relisting his mods in the future... Then perhaps some people should think about trying to at least moderate their language and tone, before posting any further...

 

EDIT:
And before someone nails me for posting about something that JUST got covered, Sorry... It took me quite awhile to write this post, and I see a WHOLE bunch of posts that ninja'd me in the meantime... I said this thread is fast moving, and its hard to keep up, and keep replies current... :P

Edited by Stone Blue
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1 hour ago, Malah said:

It's what I want to read, thanks :)

For me the problem begin at the start of this thread, and my angry begin when ModuleManager has been delist without really warning.

But my other question about futures dependencies delist is again here... In the future, I'm quite sure we will re-see this sort of drama, we have seen it so many time here, 64 bits, kerbalstuff, curse, and now CKAN, it's always the same things ...

Malah I am sorry you feel that way but @technicalfool is perfectly right. I used the nuclear option because it was needed. The why we got there was talked in thise thread and the #CKAN channel. I don't enjoy to make life harder for everyone but it was temporary and it is hardly the kind of measure I plan to use often, if ever again. The other options was far worse long term IMHO.

So now I will leave this as is since I am on vacation.

Edited by sarbian
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1 hour ago, blu3wolf said:

This is misplaced anger, IMO. Sarbian requested metadata describing the mod he maintains be deleted from the CKAN. The concern should still be with the CKAN maintainers, for acceding to the request.

You are HALF-correct... let me fix that for you:

"This is misplaced anger, IMO. Sarbian requested metadata describing the mod he maintains be deleted from the CKAN. The concern should still be with the CKAN maintainers, for NOT acceding to these requests from the beginning. "

:wink:

Edited by Stone Blue
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I'd just like to point out something, as I'm seeing some people becoming side-tracked down a rabbit hole of fallacy. Being in a majority or part of a minority has no factor in whether something is right or wrong. Just have to look back in history (and sadly even today) to see how billions can be wrong, yet think they're right only because they see others doing the same thing. I'll also mention that the minority can also be just as wrong. Any argument that relies on something being better than something else based on "popularity" has failed before it has even stared.

Also, people may not like what @sarbian did by de-listing MM but his actions were exactly the same as those taken by unions. People don't want to go on strike, but sometimes it's required to be heard above the noise and bickering. It was a nuclear option for expressing the fact that CKAN is only useful when modders want to use it. No one was harmed by this action and if a dependent mod's only/primary distribution platform was via CKAN and did not give equal priority to manual installations then the price was paid for that oversight (for what was only a few hours anyway).

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41 minutes ago, Stone Blue said:

Hmmm... a more reasonable modder, because he seems to be on "your side"?...

No - just pointing out that if it was his users, and he wasnt irked at CKAN, that would be a reasonable stance to take. Otherwise, its not his users at fault, as was claimed.

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2 minutes ago, cybutek said:

It was a nuclear option for expressing the fact that CKAN is only useful when modders want to use it. No one was harmed by this action and if a dependent mod's only/primary distribution platform was via CKAN and did not give equal priority to manual installations then the price was paid for that oversight (for what was only a few hours anyway).

Well, CKAN is useful even if modders dont want to use it. That is kind of the point being made.

No one was harmed by this action, but at the same time, no one has been harmed by CKANs actions either. In fact, until someone develops a method for delivering a punch in the face over standard TCP/IP, I suspect people remaining not harmed is likely to stay the status quo.

Lots of mods use CKAN for something it advertises keenly; the ability to simplify complex installs greatly, for mods that require complex dependency chains. Its hardly an oversight, and a number of modders deliberately hide their direct download link to encourage use of CKAN, to decrease their support requirements for porked installs.

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3 hours ago, cantab said:

Which brings up an idea for the mod developers reading: if CKAN makes such a nuisance of itself, have you considered just not being involved in end-user support much, if at all? Let the userbase help each other and get on with enjoying your life. As I user, personally I'd far, far rather have that than have the upstream developers outright sabotaging the tools I might use, or a wave of restrictive licensing and then a wave of mods dying as their developers leave.

Because when we do not provide support in the thread, we get complaints, insults, and vitrol from the users about our 'crap'.  Heck, the hate mail and abuse I got from choosing not to do exhaustive documentation is just a small slice of that.  So if by 'get on with enjoying your life' means having to wade through a lot of really angry people, then it kinda kills the fun.  Add to that, someone has to sort out how to train said users.  And even once trained (I am pretty lucky in my threads that most of the users support eachother at this point), it still clogs the thread with repeat issues, etc. (including having things on the tracker).

@Hevak was 100% correct by the way, @blu3wolf .   CKAN releated install issues have far exceeded the workload for traditional install issues in my threads.  It's just that CKAN tends to blow up right after a major release, or when something would suddenly break.  With my own metadata, that number is down, but I would still greatly prefer to deal with manual installs and teach people how to fish.

Regarding @sarbian and Module Manager's takedown.  Let's remember.   We had a working deal.  it was squashed.  ModuleManager got pulled.  All of a sudden, we had our deal again.  Let this sink in a bit.  I have maintained, and will continue to maintain, that when both parties have skin in the game, and when either party has the power of walking away, you're going to have a strong incentive to cooperate.  Which is why we're here now.  And this is good.  Because the alternative would have been some pretty aggressive defensive coding.

I for one prefer a situation where both parties choose to be involved, and both parties have a say, so that we can sort out the root issues without either party being an involuntary participant.  If anything, this situation and what it took to get here has shown the importance of open dialog and voluntary participation in making these things work.

Edited by RoverDude
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2 minutes ago, blu3wolf said:

Well, CKAN is useful even if modders dont want to use it. That is kind of the point being made.

I fail to see how a tool used to manage/install mods can be useful without mods to manage/install. :P

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If there are no mods to manage/install, there are no modders. So, modders not wanting to use it, is a situation that is impossible. Your reasoning is flawed, there.

4 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

CKAN releated install issues have far exceeded the workload for traditional install issues.  It's just that CKAN tends to blow up right after a major release, or when something would suddenly break.  With my own metadata, that number is down, but I would still greatly prefer to deal with manual installs and teach people how to fish.

 

I can agree that this situation is largely caused by mismanaged metadata, yes.

Seeing as its been claimed on here that better management of that metadata will not resolve the issue alone, Im not sure what else to suggest to you.

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Many suggestions to help sort this have already been voiced on the CKAN threads on Github.  And for some modders, saying 'Sorry, not on CKAN - read the readme and install manually' will be a better support option (whether temporarily or permanently).  Fortunately, that's now supported since being listed in CKAN is not compulsory.

(Some small edits for clarity)

Edited by RoverDude
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Just now, blu3wolf said:

If there are no mods to manage/install, there are no modders. So, modders not wanting to use it, is a situation that is impossible. Your reasoning is flawed, there.

I think @sarbian and @RoverDude just proved the point that mods can still exist and be available to users without having to be available on CKAN. We worked without CKAN for many years and the modding community worked perfectly fine back then. The modding community didn't just spring up after the development of CKAN. :D

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