IgorZ

[1.7.1] Kerbal Attachment System (KAS) v1.4 - NOT COMPATIBLE WITH KSP 1.7.0

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Posted (edited)

So the fix for the various winch types definitely works for newly-created ones, but pre-existing parts will still do the "not available" bit.  Gonna see if I can isolate the save file info difference to fix that...

EDIT: Figured it out!  Find the RTS1 listings and revert all malfunctioning ones to:


persistedLinkState = Available
persistedLinkPartId = 0
persistedLinkNodeName =
 

Doing that will "unstick" them.

EDIT 2: I have found a new bug (well, bugs really) while experimenting with this.  1.) attempting to switch between docked and undocked will launch any rovers involved in the process sky-high (often ejected at 20m/s or greater vertically).  2.) If an RTS-1 hose gets disconnected at any length greater than 30m, it can never be recovered.  There is no "retract" option, and any Kerbal attempting to pick it up will get an error claiming that the distance is too great on the hose.

Edited by SkyRender

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2 hours ago, SkyRender said:

EDIT: Figured it out!  Find the RTS1 listings and revert all malfunctioning ones to:


persistedLinkState = Available
persistedLinkPartId = 0
persistedLinkNodeName =

A rule of thumb is never saving game that works bad (e.g. if the connectors cannot be grabbed, then the game works bad). When a mod doesn't operate as designed, it can put the part into a inconsistent state, which may get persisted. This applies to any mod, not only KAS. KAS is just more sensitive to it due to its parts have a lot of logic behind. And you've figured the right fix. Another approach that you could use is replacing the parts with KIS (in debug mode it allows spawning new parts in the flight).

2 hours ago, SkyRender said:

1.) attempting to switch between docked and undocked will launch any rovers involved in the process sky-high (often ejected at 20m/s or greater vertically).

It's usually related to the wheel collider or auto struts. Can you make a simple setup from the stock parts for testing? My tests on the launchpad don't reveal any weird behavior.

2 hours ago, SkyRender said:

2.) If an RTS-1 hose gets disconnected at any length greater than 30m, it can never be recovered.  There is no "retract" option, and any Kerbal attempting to pick it up will get an error claiming that the distance is too great on the hose.

Alas, there is no way to fix it without a great sacrifice to the physical realism. If you were allowed to pick up such connector, the very next thing that would happen is a weird physical effect on the kerbal. It's due to the fact that in this state the joint is stretched, and there is a force in play. It may be compensated by the connector laying on the ground, but nobody may guess how it affect kerbal (the kerbal model is a very complicated complex of physics and kinematic). There are two ways how you can deal with such situation:

  1. Use kerbal to "kick" the connector in the direction of the source part. Once the connector is at the right distance, you'll be able to pick it up.
  2. Enable "advanced tweakables". This will reveal a hidden menu on the winch which allows docking the connector without the need of picking it up.

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9 hours ago, SkyRender said:

So the fix for the various winch types definitely works for newly-created ones, but pre-existing parts will still do the "not available" bit.  Gonna see if I can isolate the save file info difference to fix that...

EDIT: Figured it out!  Find the RTS1 listings and revert all malfunctioning ones to:


persistedLinkState = Available
persistedLinkPartId = 0
persistedLinkNodeName =

Doing that will "unstick" them.

Thank you very much, you saved my fuel supply base.

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@Tonka Crash @IgorZ

Just to make sure... Latest update of KAS(1.4) implemented fix No 1 from TonKaCrash on the last page?

I know I could always look at the config files myself but maybe it's better to have the info available to everyone on this thread.

Oh... and thanks :) both of you!

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Posted (edited)

@merlinux Yes Fix #1 is part of KAS 1.4. 

(Something weird is going on with the board software, I edited my "fix" post three times now to say exactly that and it's reverting hours later.)

Edited by Tonka Crash

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Posted (edited)

 

I've updated my post on the fixes to include @SkyRender's fix for glitched parts. If you have a question on that post, please do not quote the whole thing. Just tagging me is enough to get my attention.

Edited by Tonka Crash

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Posted (edited)

I have a save in progress that I can pretty easily set up to see the "rover blast-off" effect at will.  It mainly seems to happen on lower-gravity bodies (especially the Mun and Minmus).

EDIT: Here we are: www.skyrender.net/kas_rover_jump.zip

The craft to test it on is Mun Mining Operation Driller; just undock and/or dock the cables leading to the mouse drones to see it in action.  I have a few other mods installed that might also need to be loaded to get this save to work.  They are KIS, Planetary Base Systems, TAC Life Support, and Kerbal Alarm Clock.  Both of the expansion packs are installed as well.  I also set up custom flags, but I doubt that's going to make the save unloadable (if it does, I can provide them as well).

EDIT 2: Just to clarify, I am building a testbed save with just KAS installed to showcase the issue.  However, that won't be ready for at least a few more hours due to existing obligations in Real Life(tm).  As such, I figured I would provide the offending save now if anyone wanted to see if they could muddle it out before then.

EDIT 3: I was able to build the testbed before Real Life(tm) intervened, and actually got the bug triggering on the launchpad no less!  Not quite as dramatically as on the Mun, but close!

http://www.skyrender.net/KAS_Rover_Bug.zip

This just requires KSP 1.7.1 and KAS; no expansions or any other mods.  Hope it helps!  To see the effect the quickest, select UNDOCK and then DOCK on the left hose port.  It will jump a tiny bit when you undock, and jump a few meters into the air when docked again.

EDIT 4: Wow, I didn't realize what a goldmine of docking testing this save is.  The right hose port requires a bit of ship swapping to test this on, but the jump is even more grand.  And if you do it a few times it will jump about 10m in the air!  From the launchpad, mind you!

Edited by SkyRender

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Posted (edited)

@SkyRender I took a look at the save you posted. It's not new, from what I've seen it's just the way physics work in KSP and isn't a KAS specific problem. 

When you set the RTS-1 as DOCKED you are joining the vessels into one ship. The loads on each landing leg or wheel are being calculated based on a the total weight and combined center of gravity of the both vessels. Even though the RTS-1 has flexibility in the hose the game doesn't recognize this when docked. It's going to look at the positions of each part and spread out the weight around all the ground contact points as if the vessels were rigidly connected. This all happens from one physics frame to the next, so it's a shock to the springs on all those parts. You see a little wiggle as the forces rebalance. 

I'm guessing the rover is much lighter than either of the landers, so when you dock its wheels are being tasked with supporting part of the weight of the rover. When you undock the rover wheels that had been supporting the lander all of a sudden have a huge load removed and the the wheels unload instantly causing the rover to hop into the air. This is just the nature of the game since the dock/undock is a instant toggle switch.

There is a mod that will help mitigate this. USI Tools has a "Ground Tether" that can be added to craft. You may already have it installed if you use any of the USI mods. This is a brilliant little piece of code that is the best motion stabilizer I've seen and it's so simple. I started using it on bases and landers to keep them from sliding around on the ground where it's excellent. It will damp out the transition from docked to undocked if at least the lightest vessels have the Tether engaged.

I also love this for damping out underdamped bouncy landing gear. Toggle it around the mid point of the bounce and it stops motion getting the bounciness under control. Play with it and you get the hang of what it does. Also remember to toggle it off before trying to drive away or take off. It will put up a fight.

It adds a PAW option Engage Ground Tether.

// Add USI-Tools Ground Tether option to command modules and probe cores
@PART[*]:HAS[@MODULE[ModuleCommand],!MODULE[USI_InertialDampener]] 
{
	MODULE
	{
		name = USI_InertialDampener
	}
}

 

 

Edited by Tonka Crash

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What's interesting is, KSP itself has a tool built into it to prevent this sort of thing: physics smoothing.  It runs it whenever you load a save, and also when you come out of timewarp.  I don't know if there's any easy way to access it, but the code is already in the game to prevent the rover jump problem: basically just activate and deactivate timewarp upon docking for just long enough that the physics smoothing activates.  Done by code, it would probably be almost imperceptible.

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Quick question:

If you used a winch to assist docking, would the connector immediately detach when docking occurred? Or would it stay attached?

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18 minutes ago, RealKerbal3x said:

Quick question:

If you used a winch to assist docking, would the connector immediately detach when docking occurred? Or would it stay attached?

I don't really know. I've never used a winch in that case, but I think it should stay attached until you tell it to disconnect.

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Just now, Tonka Crash said:

I don't really know. I've never used a winch in that case, but I think it should stay attached until you tell it to disconnect.

Alright, thanks. I think I'll give it a go tomorrow.

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My initial testing with KSP 1.7.2 is positive. I deleted the temp fix file (KAS/Patches/MM-temp-fix.cfg) from fix #2 in my workaround post and haven't seen problems yet with KAS 1.4 on KSP 1.7.2. I'm sure someone will post up soon with a use case I didn't test.

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16 hours ago, Tonka Crash said:

My initial testing with KSP 1.7.2 is positive. I deleted the temp fix file (KAS/Patches/MM-temp-fix.cfg) from fix #2 in my workaround post and haven't seen problems yet with KAS 1.4 on KSP 1.7.2. I'm sure someone will post up soon with a use case I didn't test.

I can't right click on the JS-1 socket and do anything with it. I can place objects and also detach things, but cant use the JS-1 socket. I really miss that feature to connect my vessels on ground. Is there a fix for it or am i missing something? I've tried both 1.7.1 and .1.7.2.

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5 minutes ago, TheDanishNoob said:

I can't right click on the JS-1 socket and do anything with it. I can place objects and also detach things, but cant use the JS-1 socket. I really miss that feature to connect my vessels on ground. Is there a fix for it or am i missing something? I've tried both 1.7.1 and .1.7.2.

Are you sure you aren't dealing with a glitched hose unit like SkyRender describes above? I talk about how to fix that problem in the workaround post.

Because of your post I just went back and verified all the links, winches and RTS-1 on 1.7.2-2556. I'm not seeing problems. Please confirm that you have KAS 1.4 installed on 1.7.2. KAS 1.3 is going to have problems.

Otherwise I need to see a log that captures your problem. Just send a test vessel to the launchpad, try to connect something and when it fails exit the game and post a link to the KSP.Log in the game install directory. 

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50 minutes ago, Tonka Crash said:

Are you sure you aren't dealing with a glitched hose unit like SkyRender describes above? I talk about how to fix that problem in the workaround post.

Because of your post I just went back and verified all the links, winches and RTS-1 on 1.7.2-2556. I'm not seeing problems. Please confirm that you have KAS 1.4 installed on 1.7.2. KAS 1.3 is going to have problems.

Otherwise I need to see a log that captures your problem. Just send a test vessel to the launchpad, try to connect something and when it fails exit the game and post a link to the KSP.Log in the game install directory. 

I just confirmed it's KAS 1.4 on 1.7.2-2556. I just created a new game and sent a vessel to the launchpad and again I was able to use the tool to connect stuff til the vessen, but then i right click on the JS-1 socket nothing happens. I know there is supposed to pop op a littel menu, but nothing is happening. 

In the KSP.Log there are to files: MMPatch and Modulemanager. Do you need both?

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@TheDanishNoob Just the KSP.log should be enough.  Are you close enough to the JS-1 to interact with it? Also are you sure it's not an old socket left over from the Legacy KAS?

This was this morning

roTDlqS.png

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3 hours ago, TheDanishNoob said:

I just created a new game and sent a vessel to the launchpad and again I was able to use the tool to connect stuff til the vessen, but then i right click on the JS-1 socket nothing happens. I know there is supposed to pop op a littel menu, but nothing is happening. 

You are not trying to connect two JS-1 ports together, do you? Because this scenario is no more possible.

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16 hours ago, IgorZ said:

You are not trying to connect two JS-1 ports together, do you? Because this scenario is no more possible.

This! It's been a long time since I played with the mod, and I think I remembered it being that way? 

Tonka Crash, sorry for the confusion, the mod is working 100%, my fault :-/

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@TheDanishNoob No problems. My psychic powers failed me. Answering questions from players is mostly intuition, trying to guess what the player is really asking based on the information they give. It just hadn't occurred to me that you were trying to use the sockets like the old KAS sockets, but Igor figured it out. Players in this case usually ask some variation of, "Why can't I make pipes?" and it's easy. KAS has had so many problems with KSP breaking things when the last several updates, I assumed it might be a legit problem you were seeing since we just got an update.

You do remember KAS letting you connect sockets together to form pipes between points. The 0.6 KAS series (now known as Legacy KAS) behaved that way. KAS 1.0+ tries to be a little more physically realistic, no more pipes from no where. The other big improvement is the hose connections are flexible, so when physics load the connections aren't all snapping. That was my biggest problem using the old KAS pipes. I'd connect up dispersed base buildings and have to send an engineer out to reconnect everything after loading.

 

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Just to let you know, using latest KSP and KAS builds everything is working well for me, Thanks!

was a bit of confusion with the PBS flexible corridors as they seem to operate differently than before, but all is good!

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40 minutes ago, bunjatec said:

Just to let you know, using latest KSP and KAS builds everything is working well for me, Thanks!

was a bit of confusion with the PBS flexible corridors as they seem to operate differently than before, but all is good!

Different than before 1.7.2? I haven't gotten there you in my 1.7.2 save. The PBS corridors went through an update for KAS 1.2  to use the current KAS library when Legacy KAS support was dropped, but they shouldn't have changed since then.

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you used to have 2 parts, and it coupled them like a KAS hose, corridor to corridor coupler.

now both parts are the same (K&K flexible corridor) and you can couple them if they are close enough (3m IIRC) without walking (in fact the kerbal has to out of the way as it checks for obstructions) and it forms a solid linkage that you can climb over, and not walk through.

built my first minmus base in this save (science mode) last night.

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Hi! I love this mod and I am looking for a way to detach multiple connectors at once (for a Curiosity-style triple-winch landing)

 

However, the "Detach Connector" option is not available to use in Action Groups, probably because it is a contextual option (it is only available when something is connected)

 

Is there a known solution to this problem?

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Hi, I don't know if it's already known here, but there seems to be some inter-operability bug between KAS and Extraplanetary launchpads.

Latest KAS is great btw, but using any KAS parts (either in the craft being built or on the building vessel) means that the most recent version of EL bugs out...

I'm not blaming KAS, and EL hasn't yet been updated for 1.7.x yet, just wondering if something significant changed in KAS that we can feed into the bug reports..

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