IgorZ

[1.8] Kerbal Attachment System (KAS) v1.5 - INCOMPATIBLE WITH KSP 1.7

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Hello IgorZ, I decided to come to this mod forum to address a very particular problem I'm having - not a bug, but rather a need for advice.  I was participating in the Polar Charter challenge by Pine, and I ran into issues regarding extremely high mass, high density cargo.  I have three 2.5m freight containers from USI packed with Uraninite, and they altogether weigh some 400 - 450 tons (depending on if I 100% fill each one or not), and it seems that no matter what kind of infernal robotics or KAS I use, it always either breaks the crane, over stresses things, makes them stretch apart or compress together severely beyond clipping, etc (understandably, irl things of this density would absolutely smash most systems).  I've tried using a docking port senior with struts, and that holds it steady as would many other static support options, however, I would like to separate the cargo from my air frame in style rather than just dropping it, or paradropping it (which would probably work pretty well, I just want to stay lore friendly to the challenge).  I have considered using an extremely large number of cranes with electromagnets, but I'm a perfectionist when it comes to everything having perfect symmetry and the part count of two dozen winches or more + finding a way to make them look sharp is a huge headache.  And of course, wheel physics in Unity 5 spaz out and detonate all parts with the force of a supernova when subjected to such weight.

Is there any mod out there that you know of that would assist in handling such 4 locomotives crammed into a Honda Civic mass type cargo?  And if not, could you possibly make an ultra-strong winch and attachment system that is capable of manipulating such containers in and out of Mk 3 cargo bays without permanently attaching parts to them?

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5 hours ago, MunGazer said:

Hello IgorZ, I decided to come to this mod forum to address a very particular problem I'm having - not a bug, but rather a need for advice.  I was participating in the Polar Charter challenge by Pine, and I ran into issues regarding extremely high mass, high density cargo.  I have three 2.5m freight containers from USI packed with Uraninite, and they altogether weigh some 400 - 450 tons (depending on if I 100% fill each one or not), and it seems that no matter what kind of infernal robotics or KAS I use, it always either breaks the crane, over stresses things, makes them stretch apart or compress together severely beyond clipping, etc (understandably, irl things of this density would absolutely smash most systems).  I've tried using a docking port senior with struts, and that holds it steady as would many other static support options, however, I would like to separate the cargo from my air frame in style rather than just dropping it, or paradropping it (which would probably work pretty well, I just want to stay lore friendly to the challenge).  I have considered using an extremely large number of cranes with electromagnets, but I'm a perfectionist when it comes to everything having perfect symmetry and the part count of two dozen winches or more + finding a way to make them look sharp is a huge headache.  And of course, wheel physics in Unity 5 spaz out and detonate all parts with the force of a supernova when subjected to such weight.

Is there any mod out there that you know of that would assist in handling such 4 locomotives crammed into a Honda Civic mass type cargo?  And if not, could you possibly make an ultra-strong winch and attachment system that is capable of manipulating such containers in and out of Mk 3 cargo bays without permanently attaching parts to them?

Well, as you've correctly stated in the problem description, you're trying to lift insanely heavy objects :) Changing KAS part strengths is not a big a deal: you just open part's config, and right-add zeros to the related forces. Though, this will not work since the rest of the vessel won't sustain the strain. Imagine, you've made magnet indefinitely strong. What will break next? It will be the winch-to-vessel joint. And if you strengthen it then the joint between the parent part and the vessel will break, and so on. In the end, your vessel will either fall due to badly shifted CoM, or the static joint will break (if you've attached the vessel to the ground). That said, it's not about KAS parts that cannot handle heavy objects, it's about game's physics. If you want dealing with huge weights you need to ensure the whole vessel can handle it. Which is not a straightforward goal since regular KSP joint strength cannot be changed via part config.

If I were you I would setup an empty tank on the ground, transferred resources into it using KAS pipes, and then dealt with the target part of a reasonable mass. Once the part is on its place, I'd transfer the resources back.

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Thanks IgorZ for your reply.  I will definitely try altering the winch mounting point strength and magnet strength in the config file (hoping I will be able to know how to alter it without coming back here for assistance);  so far the air frame has been handling the weight well because the attachment methods I used distribute the stress across the airframe well enough using a large docking port and several struts, although my first description of the problem made it sound like the entire vessel was collapsing.

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Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I just can't get KAS to work most of the time. The main thing I want to use it for is module recovery from orbit. I tried to attach a connector port and it tells me that the module doesn't allow it (in this case, it was an engine). I try to use the grappling hook or the magnet, and they never seem to attach to the target. When they do, they let get just before reaching my ship. If I do get the module in the cargo bay, it explodes the next time I time warp. 

There has to be an easier way to do this that I'm missing. Can I bring a bunch of docking ports up and attach them to the module and then dock it in the cargo bay?

How does everyone else handle this?

Thanks,

Jamie

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On 9/4/2016 at 10:34 AM, doggonemess said:

I tried to attach a connector port and it tells me that the module doesn't allow it (in this case, it was an engine)

Every part can specify if it allows surface attach or not. If it doesn't allow it then you cannot attach, KAS cannot overrule it. Engine models are known to not let surface attachments. Attach a stack part to it, then do whatever you planned.

On 9/4/2016 at 10:34 AM, doggonemess said:

I try to use the grappling hook or the magnet, and they never seem to attach to the target

It's either a bug or not. To figure it out we need many screenshots (or better a video) and "KSP.log".

On 9/4/2016 at 10:34 AM, doggonemess said:

When they do, they let get just before reaching my ship

Again, to track this issue down we need KSP.log and the screenshots. As for now it looks you're trying to pull a heavy part that breaks the joint once reached the main vessel (due to the inertia). Winch is designed so what the pull force is dampened, so you can start pulling (i.e. accelerate) a rather heavy part. Though, once the part flew past the winch it will reach the cable length limit, and deceleration impulse won't be dampened in this case. I.e. you may get joints (or even parts!) broken.

On 9/4/2016 at 10:34 AM, doggonemess said:

If I do get the module in the cargo bay, it explodes the next time I time warp. 

Depending on how exactly you do it it may be a bug or not. In time warping physics is disabled, so no explosion can happen. Though, on the physics start The Kraken can awake, and you never know why. We need exact description of what you're doing, screenshots (or a video) and the logs.

An in general. I'd not suggest using KAS for parts recovery contracts. The thing that works best is using KIS to attach a docking port. Then, just dock to it via normal means, and de-orbit.

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On 9/6/2016 at 2:55 AM, IgorZ said:

An in general. I'd not suggest using KAS for parts recovery contracts. The thing that works best is using KIS to attach a docking port. Then, just dock to it via normal means, and de-orbit.

Thanks for all the info and this great suggestion - I didn't think of that. I'm going to give it a try and see what happens.

Jamie

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Another teaser of KAS 1.0 is ready. This time it's a complete part! Meet the new KAS part: Free telescopic joint. It's strong, so it keeps its length. Though, the joint pivots are free, so the connected bodies can move.

And I hate to repeat it, but it's still a prototype :( The code is being actively developed.

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22 minutes ago, nascarlaser1 said:

Since you took over KAS, will you also be taking over its sister mod, KIS?

He has been maintaining KIS as well.

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5 minutes ago, goldenpsp said:

He has been maintaining KIS as well.

Do you know where the new thread for KIS is? All this time I"ve been looking at the wrong one :P.

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8 minutes ago, nascarlaser1 said:

Do you know where the new thread for KIS is? All this time I"ve been looking at the wrong one :P.

@IgorZ Has stated he will start a new thread when he releases a new version of KIS.  At this point I would guess that may occur with 1.2's release.

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Just now, goldenpsp said:

@IgorZ Has stated he will start a new thread when he releases a new version of KIS.  At this point I would guess that may occur with 1.2's release.

ok thanks! I'm interested in part adding mods that don't change game play, like mechjeb does, so KAS and KIS were some of my top ones.

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1 minute ago, ExplorerKlatt said:

It looks like you have the connector port backwards. 

 

Huh... would that cause it to remain flipped like that? Like one face is programmed to point downwards always?

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The telescopic joint looks great, I'd be a bit worried about spinning though, krakens ahoy when there's too much momentum. This kind of thing would be great for attaching smaller asteroids to a huge one, something I've been wanting to do effectively for a long time without ramming in a grabber attached to a dock.

Can't wait.

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Been having this weird issue where I'm trying to lift a cargo from a plane that carried both the cargo and the crane. But as soon as the claw connects with the payload, the cord becomes stiff and the whole thing just becomes cemented. This is happening every single time I try to lift my cargo out of the plane and it always ends up snapping something on the crane. This never happened when I was testing it and I have no idea why its doing it now... thoughts??

fyi: I am still on KSP 1.1.2 and using the compatible versions of the mods to that game version. 

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4 hours ago, Calvin_Maclure said:

fyi: I am still on KSP 1.1.2 and using the compatible versions of the mods to that game version. 

My primary test env is 1.1.3. I can only help with issues with the current KSP & KAS versions. If you can reproduce and describe the issue under KSP 1.1.3 and KAS 0.5.9 then it will be a bug report for me. Supporting an arbitratry KSP/KAS setup is out of my capabilities.

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so... the magnet... is it broken?  I used to use it all the time pre-1.1, but now it seems... nonfunctional.  Here's a summary of issues:

 

1. magnet directly attached to the underside of my craft:  I turn on the magnet (antimatter power, plenty of EC :) ) ... land on top of the payload at 1 m/s.. magnet attaches... payload freaks out and *explodes*
2. magnet attached to a winch:  I engage the magnet and lower it.  as soon as it touches the payload, the magnet turns off.
3. magnet attached to a winch but with the winch fully retracted:  same behavior as #1

what am I doing wrong here?
 

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4 hours ago, ss8913 said:

so... the magnet... is it broken?  I used to use it all the time pre-1.1, but now it seems... nonfunctional.  Here's a summary of issues:

1. magnet directly attached to the underside of my craft:  I turn on the magnet (antimatter power, plenty of EC :) ) ... land on top of the payload at 1 m/s.. magnet attaches... payload freaks out and *explodes*
2. magnet attached to a winch:  I engage the magnet and lower it.  as soon as it touches the payload, the magnet turns off.
3. magnet attached to a winch but with the winch fully retracted:  same behavior as #1

what am I doing wrong here?

We need screenshots (or better a video) and logs. Exploding of links is a known issue, and nobody knows for sure why it happens. I'd suggest it's a mod conflict since when KAS creates a joint with another part it replaces KSP joint with own instance of PhysX joint. Some mods may not like it.

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Is it possible to change the amount a single kerbal could attach if the part were to be held by an arm?  Like using the IR and Canada arm mods to move large parts into position for attachment.

Edited by icedown

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18 hours ago, IgorZ said:

We need screenshots (or better a video) and logs. Exploding of links is a known issue, and nobody knows for sure why it happens. I'd suggest it's a mod conflict since when KAS creates a joint with another part it replaces KSP joint with own instance of PhysX joint. Some mods may not like it.

I'll see if I can capture one, not sure I have any video-cap software installed.  To distill it down though, I have the KAS gui open (ie, right click the winch, "Open GUI").  The MAGNET button is grayed out until i extend the cable.  So I extend the cable a few meters, enable the magnet.  Drop the magnet onto the payload, the magnet light goes off and the right-click menu on the magnet now shows off, where previously it was on.  Attempting to re-engage the magnet fails until the winch retracts to the point that the magnet is no longer touching the payload.  That's the long and the short of it ... I'll check the logs too and see if anything is weird.

Are there certain part types to which a magnet will not attach?

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5 hours ago, icedown said:

Is it possible to change the amount a single kerbal could attach if the part were to be held by an arm?  Like using the IR and Canada arm mods to move large parts into position for attachment.

For now this isn't planned. To properly connect parts they must be positioned with a precision of fraction of millimeter. In the editor it's done programmatically but with physics enabled it becomes a real challenge (if possible at all). If you need to connect huge sections then you likely need KAS. And if you build a large spaceship on the orbit then your best bet is using docking ports.

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1 hour ago, IgorZ said:

For now this isn't planned. To properly connect parts they must be positioned with a precision of fraction of millimeter. In the editor it's done programmatically but with physics enabled it becomes a real challenge (if possible at all). If you need to connect huge sections then you likely need KAS. And if you build a large spaceship on the orbit then your best bet is using docking ports.

I wasn't meaning use the arm directly, but allow a part to be grabbed and attached using KAS with a kerbal as long as the kerbal is in range of both the part and the attachment point, one idea would be putting a small part on the end of the arm that tells KAS that there are a couple more kerbals there to help.  All of my kerbals carry ladders and attach them where they are working, but they float off the ladders after a part or two.

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