Algiark

Flat Kerbin?

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There's a video by Vsauce illustrating how the physics would work if the earth is simply flat:

I don't know if it's even possible to change Kerbin's shape in the game, but I thought it would be funny to try launch your ship and orbit a flat Kerbin. Heck, just navigating Kerbin on the surface would be pretty goofy.

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Would be quite interesting to try even orbit it. I wonder how it'd work with orbital mechanics. I don't think navigating the surface would be goofy. Hence the fact it kind of feels like you're on near-flat ground while standing around. but if you were standing on the side if there was width, then it'd be pretty goofy.

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well, you could modify the heightmaps...but I suspect it would be very wonky...

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I think the hardest part would be modeling all the elephants and turtles holding it up.

(sorry - couldn't resist)

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You'd have a pretty flexible definition of "up" driving around, especially if it's  rotating too...

Edited by Van Disaster

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On the ground, the closer you get to the edge, the steeper it would be, to the point where it feels like you're climbing vertically. And think about Kerbinrise from the Mun! It would be like watching a coin flip in very slow motion, depending on the orientation.

 

While we're at it, why not a ringworld Kerbin?

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If it's rotating too, centrifugal force would be trying to tilt everything outwards. In the unlikely event of the gravity gradient matching you'd be standing upright the whole way to the edge. Given the more likely event of it not matching, local "up" would be interestingly dynamic ...

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On 7/7/2016 at 9:24 PM, wasml said:

I think the hardest part would be modeling all the elephants and turtles holding it up.

(sorry - couldn't resist)

No, the hard part is getting the elephant to lift its leg at just the right moment so Kerbol can pass by safely...

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To be fair...

If you've never personally left the earth and seen that it's a sphere with your own two eyes, you only know what someone else is telling you. NASA is a government funded program that answers to no one. Our entire concept of the universe and our place in it is based upon what several hundred people all belonging to one administration tell us to believe.

There is no scientific experiment you can perform from the surface of the Earth that proves whether it rotates around the Sun or the other way around. It would look the same to us from our perspective either way. Likewise you can't prove without personally leaving the Earth that it is without a doubt a sphere or if it is flat. I'm not suggesting you become a tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorist...but you should question everything. Especially when someone is trying to sell you something. (Your tax dollars pay for the "Space Program.") Having said that, I'm not a "flat earther" nor do I think the moon landing was faked, but I'm extremely sure were not being told everything. You have to ask yourself, if they are willing to lie and omit information...how far would they go? Where is the line? If they found out tomorrow the Earth was actually the center of the galaxy with the sun revolving around it, flat as a dinner plate, sitting on the back of a giant turtle, or any other such nonsense...do you think they would tell us?

Edited by Rocket In My Pocket

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1 hour ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

To be fair...

If you've never personally left the earth and seen that it's a sphere with your own two eyes, you only know what someone else is telling you. NASA is a government funded program that answers to no one. Our entire concept of the universe and our place in it is based upon what several hundred people all belonging to one administration tell us to believe.

There is no scientific experiment you can perform from the surface of the Earth that proves whether it rotates around the Sun or the other way around. It would look the same to us from our perspective either way. Likewise you can't prove without personally leaving the Earth that it is without a doubt a sphere or if it is flat. I'm not suggesting you become a tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorist...but you should question everything. Especially when someone is trying to sell you something. (Your tax dollars pay for the "Space Program.") Having said that, I'm not a "flat earther" nor do I think the moon landing was faked, but I'm extremely sure were not being told everything. You have to ask yourself, if they are willing to lie and omit information...how far would they go? Where is the line? If they found out tomorrow the Earth was actually the center of the galaxy with the sun revolving around it, flat as a dinner plate, sitting on the back of a giant turtle, or any other such nonsense...do you think they would tell us?

I've been to the southern hemisphere, and the moon is upside down there. How would you explain that besides "We're on a really big sphere"? I also saw only the tops of clouds over the horizon very clearly out an airplane window at 9 km altitude only two days ago. It's pretty clear and easy to test. Also, sextants work. And explaining the loop-shaped orbits of the planets, where the loops are 1 AU wide, the distance from Earth to the Sun, would be extremely hard, since the loops are exactly what you would expect to see if Earth was revolving around the sun with them. You can test these theories of motion with equipment that isn't out of reach. Plot the motion of the planets and their moons for a year, and you can discover the Copernican model, plus the speed of light. Do the same with the stars and you'll find that they have varied distances, meaning they aren't painted on a black dome but are part of an immense sea. You can look at the nearby galaxies, see their shapes, and connect them to the band of light in the sky and realize you are inside something like that. You can even find planets light-years away with a home telescope! Not even the strange world of quantum mechanics is out of reach of testing by commonfolk; Point a laser at two close slits in a piece of aluminum foil and observe the particle-wave duality of light. There are people on Antarctica; they would know if it was just an ice wall. Likewise, there are people who work in particle accelerators and space stations and other places, and they know what's up. And it's not hundreds like you say. It's the other way 'round. Millions of people from many different international organizations, not all government funded, need to see the same data and work with it as part of their jobs. If something was amiss, someone in those millions would say something. They are scientists, their purpose is to educate the general public. If they find out a theory was wrong, even if it's their own, they'll revise it until they find the right one, and they'll tell us about it so we can learn more about our world, our universe, and our life. You wouldn't see books about orbital mechanics, relativity, and string theory if science was so secretive.

That said, I would try out a Flat Kerbin mod, just for laughs.

Edited by cubinator

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53 minutes ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

Likewise you can't prove without personally leaving the Earth that it is without a doubt a sphere or if it is flat.

Rebuttal: Columbus thought he proved the world round while it was Magellan's [?] group that did prove it round via travel. The same can be done today, but the funds are wanting for such things.

1 hour ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

There is no scientific experiment you can perform from the surface of the Earth that proves whether it rotates around the Sun or the other way around.

Rebuttal:This would be true, on looks alone. But, in terms of physics, it would not make sense that the Earth would orbit the Sun, due to masses. Besides, it goes against the function of gravity.

 

1 hour ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

Having said that, I'm not a "flat earther" nor do I think the moon landing was faked, but I'm extremely sure were not being told everything. You have to ask yourself, if they are willing to lie and omit information...how far would they go? Where is the line? If they found out tomorrow the Earth was actually the center of the galaxy with the sun revolving around it, flat as a dinner plate, sitting on the back of a giant turtle, or any other such nonsense...do you think they would tell us?

I will agree that we are being lied to, it is the government.

But what does the world have to lose by not lying about our universe being flat and on a tortoise? People switched over to the "concept" of a round world rather well (no wars over it), so I think it could revert quite well, also.

 

In short, while seeing for one's self would be a good way of determining something, using passed on knowledge (not lies) and rules would be the more efficient method of proving something.

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On 7/7/2016 at 6:58 AM, Algiark said:

There's a video by Vsauce illustrating how the physics would work if the earth is simply flat:

Very cute but not convincing. If you already believe that the world is flat, the sky a glass sphere and so on, then why agree with Newtonian physics? The video is easy to dispel by claiming that gravity is not pointing towards the center, but rather simply down, being the universal force that it is. It's a great video if you're already in the "earth is a sphere" camp, but that's not who the makers are trying to argue with.

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4 hours ago, Kerbart said:

Very cute but not convincing. If you already believe that the world is flat, the sky a glass sphere and so on, then why agree with Newtonian physics? The video is easy to dispel by claiming that gravity is not pointing towards the center, but rather simply down, being the universal force that it is. It's a great video if you're already in the "earth is a sphere" camp, but that's not who the makers are trying to argue with.

 

On 7/7/2016 at 3:58 AM, Algiark said:

I don't know if it's even possible to change Kerbin's shape in the game, but I thought it would be funny to try launch your ship and orbit a flat Kerbin. Heck, just navigating Kerbin on the surface would be pretty goofy.

He's just asking because it would be funny to see a flat Kerbin with real physics.

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12 minutes ago, legoclone09 said:

He's just asking because it would be funny to see a flat Kerbin with real physics.

I'd prefer the version from Discworld in that case.

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Create working orbital mechanics for a flat-Earth model?

Now there's one heck of a challenge.

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Let's not.

 

As humorous as goofing with this is,  it will only fuel the anti-intellectualism.  And they WILL find and use the 'physics model' created to do this in order to further their argument.

Do not contribute to The Dumb, even in jest.

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9 hours ago, cubinator said:

I've been to the southern hemisphere, and the moon is upside down there. How would you explain that besides "We're on a really big sphere"? I also saw only the tops of clouds over the horizon very clearly out an airplane window at 9 km altitude only two days ago. It's pretty clear and easy to test. Also, sextants work. And explaining the loop-shaped orbits of the planets, where the loops are 1 AU wide, the distance from Earth to the Sun, would be extremely hard, since the loops are exactly what you would expect to see if Earth was revolving around the sun with them. You can test these theories of motion with equipment that isn't out of reach. Plot the motion of the planets and their moons for a year, and you can discover the Copernican model, plus the speed of light. Do the same with the stars and you'll find that they have varied distances, meaning they aren't painted on a black dome but are part of an immense sea. You can look at the nearby galaxies, see their shapes, and connect them to the band of light in the sky and realize you are inside something like that. You can even find planets light-years away with a home telescope! Not even the strange world of quantum mechanics is out of reach of testing by commonfolk; Point a laser at two close slits in a piece of aluminum foil and observe the particle-wave duality of light. There are people on Antarctica; they would know if it was just an ice wall. Likewise, there are people who work in particle accelerators and space stations and other places, and they know what's up. And it's not hundreds like you say. It's the other way 'round. Millions of people from many different international organizations, not all government funded, need to see the same data and work with it as part of their jobs. If something was amiss, someone in those millions would say something. They are scientists, their purpose is to educate the general public. If they find out a theory was wrong, even if it's their own, they'll revise it until they find the right one, and they'll tell us about it so we can learn more about our world, our universe, and our life. You wouldn't see books about orbital mechanics, relativity, and string theory if science was so secretive.

That said, I would try out a Flat Kerbin mod, just for laughs.

There's a cool experiment that proves the "sphere-eath-theory":sticktongue:.
-Find a high stable tower(apparently Cathedrals fit these descriptions nicely)
-Hang a pendulum from the top, long enough to be about a meter from the ground
-Draw a protractor on the ground(or anyway to tell angles)
-Swing the pendulum in a straight line through it's center
-Leave it swinging for a while and it will intersect a different value of degrees on the protractor(proportional to the amount of degrees the earth rotated in that time period)

This actually proves the Coriolis effect, but doing this at different latitudes yields different results. There was some experiment set up for this, but I cannot find the link anymore.

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Also, wouldn't it be funny if a mod makes Kerbin the center of the system (Kerbin system?) with the sun and other planets orbiting Kerbin?

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6 hours ago, Blaarkies said:

There's a cool experiment that proves the "sphere-eath-theory":sticktongue:.
-Find a high stable tower(apparently Cathedrals fit these descriptions nicely)
-Hang a pendulum from the top, long enough to be about a meter from the ground
-Draw a protractor on the ground(or anyway to tell angles)
-Swing the pendulum in a straight line through it's center
-Leave it swinging for a while and it will intersect a different value of degrees on the protractor(proportional to the amount of degrees the earth rotated in that time period)

This actually proves the Coriolis effect, but doing this at different latitudes yields different results. There was some experiment set up for this, but I cannot find the link anymore.

There's one at the science museum in Chicago. It has little blocks that get knocked over as the pendulum swings by, so they can use it as a clock. It's pretty cool, and there's a whole bunch of other experiments that show the effects of different theories that are easy to try, if one were to put in a little effort to learn.

3 hours ago, Algiark said:

Also, wouldn't it be funny if a mod makes Kerbin the center of the system (Kerbin system?) with the sun and other planets orbiting Kerbin?

There *puts on sunglasses* is a mod for that.

It probably doesn't work with 1.1.3 yet, though. And it doesn't make Kerbin flat.

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22 hours ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

To be fair...

If you've never personally left the earth and seen that it's a sphere with your own two eyes, you only know what someone else is telling you. NASA is a government funded program that answers to no one. Our entire concept of the universe and our place in it is based upon what several hundred people all belonging to one administration tell us to believe.

False. There are much more organisations than just NASA, every larger country have one, and there are lots of private agencies now too. I think that someone would notice that every satellite they launch crashed into glass wall.
Russia would have must know that. Why wouldn´t they uncover that to destroy USA by causing panic and civil war by this? Or North Korea which also have space program?

 

Quote

There is no scientific experiment you can perform from the surface of the Earth that proves whether it rotates around the Sun or the other way around.

False. Foucault´s Pendulum proves Earth´s rotation, you can even use it calculate quite precisely your latitude based on its speed of rotation around its axis.

 

Quote

It would look the same to us from our perspective either way.

False. Erastotheles calculated circumference of Earth 200BC with two sticks, measuring the difference between shadows they cast and how far are they apart. Alright, you can say that it´s the result of Sun being close, but then it proves that Sun is merely 3000 miles up, which causes few "little" problems, like:

- We would all burn up instantly
- Sun would be 17 degrees above horizon during midnight - No nights anywhere on Earth. Ever.
- 24h sunlight in Antarctica would be absolutely impossible

- Sun would be about 30 miles in diameter, it would consume all of its fuel within few months (if it was even able to hold itself together somehow for that long).

 

Quote

Likewise you can't prove without personally leaving the Earth that it is without a doubt a sphere or if it is flat.

False. Borrow simple geo surveyor equipment and measure anywhere on Earth the Geodetic Arc, which is effect of gravity subtly leaning away two objects as they follow the direction to the center of mass on the Earth. This causes everything on Earth to lean away the farther apart two objects are. This phenomena is important for architects and constructor of larger structures like suspension bridges, and if they didn´t take this into account, the buildings would fall. I was personally present at failure of assembling the Amazon warehouse, which was so large that forgetting taking this into account ended up with several days delay of the finishing because roof was too short (same length as the floor, but sides are farther apart on tops than bottoms).

 

Quote

I'm not suggesting you become a tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorist...but you should question everything. Especially when someone is trying to sell you something. (Your tax dollars pay for the "Space Program.")

What about private ones?

By the way, you know that whole science funding (NASA being only part of it) is about 1,4% of the USA budged, while Military gets 40%? 

 

Quote

Having said that, I'm not a "flat earther" nor do I think the moon landing was faked,

You definitely sound like one.

 

Quote

but I'm extremely sure were not being told everything.

Agreed, but shape of the Earth is not one of them. It makes zero sense. 

 

Quote

You have to ask yourself, if they are willing to lie and omit information...how far would they go? Where is the line?

How far they can go and get away with it. Again, shape of the Earth is definitely not the case, as even amateurs are building rockets going into stratosphere, filming Earth from space.

http://ddeville.com/derek/Qu8k.html

 

Quote

If they found out tomorrow the Earth was actually the center of the galaxy with the sun revolving around it, flat as a dinner plate, sitting on the back of a giant turtle, or any other such nonsense...do you think they would tell us?

Every astronomer ever that spent his life documenting the sky would notice that nothing corresponds with "official story", don´t you think?

 

 

The easiest way you can tell Earth is a sphere and there are satellites orbiting Earth is this. Take GPS capable phone or any GPS from car, go into any valley where you don´t have any mobile signal, and try out if GPS still works. It does, because it is communicating with satellites, not mobile signal towers.

 

 

Edited by Wolfox

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1 hour ago, Wolfox said:

False. There are much more organisations than just NASA, every larger country have one, and there are lots of private agencies now too. I think that someone would notice that every satellite they launch crashed into glass wall.
Russia would have must know that. Why wouldn´t they uncover that to destroy USA by causing panic and civil war by this? Or North Korea which also have space program?

 

False. Foucault´s Pendulum proves Earth´s rotation, you can even use it calculate quite precisely your latitude based on its speed of rotation around its axis.

 

False. Erastotheles calculated circumference of Earth 200BC with two sticks, measuring the difference between shadows they cast and how far are they apart. Alright, you can say that it´s the result of Sun being close, but then it proves that Sun is merely 3000 miles up, which causes few "little" problems, like:

- We would all burn up instantly
- Sun would be 17 degrees above horizon during midnight - No nights anywhere on Earth. Ever.
- 24h sunlight in Antarctica would be absolutely impossible

- Sun would be about 30 miles in diameter, it would consume all of its fuel within few months (if it was even able to hold itself together somehow for that long).

 

False. Borrow simple geo surveyor equipment and measure anywhere on Earth the Geodetic Arc, which is effect of gravity subtly leaning away two objects as they follow the direction to the center of mass on the Earth. This causes everything on Earth to lean away the farther apart two objects are. This phenomena is important for architects and constructor of larger structures like suspension bridges, and if they didn´t take this into account, the buildings would fall. I was personally present at failure of assembling the Amazon warehouse, which was so large that forgetting taking this into account ended up with several days delay of the finishing because roof was too short (same length as the floor, but sides are farther apart on tops than bottoms).

 

What about private ones?

By the way, you know that whole science funding (NASA being only part of it) is about 1,4% of the USA budged, while Military gets 40%? 

 

You definitely sound like one.

 

Agreed, but shape of the Earth is not one of them. It makes zero sense. 

 

How far they can go and get away with it. Again, shape of the Earth is definitely not the case, as even amateurs are building rockets going into stratosphere, filming Earth from space.

http://ddeville.com/derek/Qu8k.html

 

Every astronomer ever that spent his life documenting the sky would notice that nothing corresponds with "official story", don´t you think?

 

 

The easiest way you can tell Earth is a sphere and there are satellites orbiting Earth is this. Take GPS capable phone or any GPS from car, go into any valley where you don´t have any mobile signal, and try out if GPS still works. It does, because it is communicating with satellites, not mobile signal towers.

 

 

A nice, complete, and total destruction of most (un)reasonable Flat-Earther arguments.  For this feat of technical know-how, I award you One (1) 'Like'.

 

I expect others replicate this action post haste.

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For some reason, it feels like arguing over this is an empty victory.

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14 hours ago, Algiark said:

Also, wouldn't it be funny if a mod makes Kerbin the center of the system (Kerbin system?) with the sun and other planets orbiting Kerbin?

Ironically the universe revolves either round the active vessel or the centre of the current SOI, I forget which.

I've been around the world sitting by an aircraft window ( and done a fair bit of deep water sailing ), that by itself would have convinced me if I'd been daft enough to doubt. I'd still like to try landing on this bizarre place though.

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Now, I'm not starting this thread for debating the Flat Earth. So, please do not start it.

Here are some intro for people who don't know what "Flat Earth" means.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSNc0yZJZqg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnbRo-xrggc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zhJNuFmzRE

The purpose of this thread is all about. How will Flat Kerbin looks like? Is it possible to make a model of it.

 

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It lies on the backs of four angry badgers. Which stand on the back of a platypus. The platypus wields a roll of duct tape and a can of WD-40 in front paws.

Religious wars were fought on the issue of what angers the beavers.

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