My personal vision of a better Kerbal EXP class system

[Unfawkable]

Before we get started, this is all just a general concept of things, and a good part of the ideas is probably not balanced, or perhaps even good. I don't have any modding knowledge to implement this, so this is just a discussion. And if someone gets a few ideas from this to implement in a mod of his, then all the sweeter. So do suggest how to generally improve this. And I know many mods already use the classes in different ways, but this is more about their EXP system and skill system. Let's get started.

So, I've basically reconstructed the entire kerbal EXP system into a skill tree that would look something like this (Behold my MS paint power):

 

So this is the skill table. Every skill except skill 0 and skill 10 have 3 levels. Kerbals start from level 0 and have the skill 0 by default. On every level up, a Kerbal receives a skill point which he can put into one skill of the same row. So for example you can end up having level 1 of skills 1, 2 and 3, you can have skill 1 at level 2 and skill 3 at level 1, or you can have one of them maxed out on level 3.

All this would of course require a change of EXP gain numbers, naturally, and each class would receive EXP based on what they do. Pilots would receive EXP from flying crafts and spaceplanes, scientists from performing experiments (not yet sure about engineers, drilling?). All 3 classes would still get EXP from general things such as orbit around the Mun, but a lot less.

Below are some crude ideas about how this could all look like. Important note though, these skill suggestions also take these mods into account since I can no longer imagine playing stock without them: RemoteTech, TAC life support (for the most part these two at least). Also, some of the skills are active and not passive, and would be activated by right clicking the kerbal, or a part needed. Using these actives will also grant some EXP.

 

Pilot:

Spoiler

Pilot:

0 – Piloty Personality: Provides stability assist

 

 

 

1 – Maneuverer: Reduces the amount of fuel spent when below 5000 meters. Doesn’t affect launch pad take off.

Level 1: Reduces Liquid fuel and Oxidizer consumption by 10% and RCS consumption by 30%

Level 2: Reduces Liquid fuel and Oxidizer consumption by 15% and RCS consumption by 50%

Level 3: Reduces Liquid fuel and Oxidizer consumption by 20% and RCS consumption by 70%

 

2 – Hazzard specialist: Reduces drag effects on the craft

Level 1: Reduces drag by 8%

Level 2: Reduces drag by 12%

Level 3: Reduces drag by 20%

 

3 – Former Racer: Increases speed and stability when driving rovers.

Level 1: Increases rover speed by 40% and stability (I don’t actually know how to word this in mechanical terms, but it would reduce the odds of flipping over)

Level 2: Increases rover speed by 60% and stability

Level 3: Increases rover speed by 100% and stability

 

 

 

4 – Voyager: Increases your engine thrust when traveling through biomes you’ve visited before.

Level 1: Increases thrust by 4%

Level 2: Increases thrust by 7%

Level 3: Increases thrust by 10%

 

5 – Explorer: Has a higher jetpack thrust, RCS fuel tank and life support storage.

Level 1: 50% higher jetpack thrust, 100% bigger RCS tank, 500% bigger life support storage

Level 2: 100% higher jetpack thrust, 200% bigger RCS tank, 1000% bigger life support storage

Level 3: 150% higher jetpack thrust, 300% bigger RCS tank, 2000% bigger life support storage

 

6 – Survivor: Has a personal parachute and will fall into a long stasis instead of dying upon taking lethal damage or running out of life support for a limited time. Can be revived by another Kerbal. (Parachute is an active)

Level 1: 200m/s at 1.0 atmosphere tolerance parachute, 6 months stasis

Level 2: 300m/s at 1.0 atmosphere tolerance parachute, 2 year stasis

Level 3: 400m/s at 1.0 atmosphere tolerance parachute, 5 year stasis

 

 

7 – Lander: Can land with ease on most terrains. Limited uses per mission (Active). (Once activated below 1000 meters, will gradually slow down and keep the craft parallel with the surface if the slope isn’t too big for the craft to stand on. Will also force the craft to land with stability without wobbling)

Level 1: 1 use per mission

Level 2: 2 uses per mission

Level 3: 4 uses per mission

 

8 – Drone Pilot: This Kerbal counts as more Kerbals when building a remote control centre with a large probe.

Level 1: Counts as 1.5 Kerbals (You’d need 4 of them instead of 6)

Level 2: Counts as 2 Kerbals (You’d need 3 of them instead of 6)

Level 3: Counts as 3 Kerbals (You’d need 2 of them instead of 6)

 

9 – Comms specialist: Increases crafts antenna range and cone angle (for dishes) but spends 50% more electricity (Active, can be toggled on or off)

Level 1: Increases range by 15% and cone angles by 5%

Level 2: Increases range by 20% and cone angles by 15%

Level 3: Increases range by 25% and cone angles by 25%

 

 

 

10 – Comet Lander: Unlocks the comet lander tech node (4000 science)

A command pod part that houses 1 Kerbal and has a 1000m/s crash tolerance and doesn’t bounce upon impact (An explosive effect as well of course). It would also require a special part to construct 1 (such as ore from a specific place of a specific planet). Requires a level 10 scientist aboard to operate. As of now work in progress, do suggest the details (May include additional parts in the tech node if needed)

 

Scientist:

Spoiler

0 – Lab cleaner: Can restore experiments modules making them usable again

 

 

 

1 – Keen observer: Increases science point yield from experiments done by this Kerbal (not done by other Kerbals and just brought back in the same pod)

Level 1: 5% science yield increase

Level 2: 15% science yield increase

Level 3: 25% science yield increase

 

2 – Thorough Examiner: Examines an experiment thoroughly taking the full yield of science from it so the experiment doesn’t need to be repeated. Can be used a limited number of times per mission (Active):

Level 1: Can be used 1 per mission

Level 2: Can be used 2 per mission

Level 3: Can be used 4 per mission

 

3 – Data EnKryptor: Increases the amount of science that can be transmitted via antenna communications (the values represent the percentages of the science that can’t be sent).

Level 1: 20% sent science increase

Level 2: 50% sent science increase

Level 3: 80% sent science increase

 

 

 

4 - Lab specialist: Drastically increases the values of science yield from Mobile Lab

Level 1: 5x speed increase

Level 2: 10x speed increase

Level 3: 20x speed increase

 

5 – Mentor: Increases the experience gain of Kerbals with lower level than himself by 25%

Level 1: Increases gains of Kerbals who are at least 4 levels below him

Level 2: Increases gains of Kerbals who are at least 3 levels below him

Level 3: Increases gains of Kerbals who are at least 2 levels below him

 

6 – Experimental equipment: Can unlock a technology using less science in R&D, but the Kerbal must be present within the craft at all times for any parts used to function. Only one technology at per Kerbal. The technology can be later paid in full so the Kerbal can take on another.

Level 1: Reduces one tech science price by 30%

Level 2: Reduces one tech science price by 45%

Level 3: Reduces one tech science price by 60%

 

 

 

7 – Storage skills: Increases the amount of data and science that can be stored in the mobile lab.

Level 1: Increases science capacity to 600 and data capacity to 800

Level 2: Increases science capacity to 750 and data capacity to 900

Level 3: Increases science capacity to 1000 and data capacity to 1000

 

8 – Nutritionist: Reduces the rate at which Kerbals consume life support (Water, Food and Oxygen). Maximum of 3 Kerbals per scientist with this skill (including the scientist).

Level 1: Reduces the rate by 10%

Level 2: Reduces the rate by 25%

Level 3: Reduces the rate by 40%

 

9 – Chemist: Increases the exchange yield from the ISRU converter machines

Level 1: Increases the exchange by 3%

Level 2: Increases the exchange by 6.5%

Level 3: Increases the exchange by 10%

 

 

 

10 – Dying Star Engine: Unlocks the dying star engine tech node (4000 science)

A much better interplanetary engine (With a high vacuum ISP, a lot better than atomic) with a high fuel efficiency. The engine can be constructed anytime, however the fuel it uses requires a special part to construct 1 (such as ore from a specific place of a specific planet). Requires a level 10 scientist aboard to operate. As of now work in progress, do suggest the details (May include additional parts in the tech node if needed).

*Something quite similar exists in Karbonite+ mod*

 

Engineer:

Spoiler

Engineer:

0 – Repairman: Can repair parachutes, wheels and landing struts

 

 

1 – Electrical expert: When below a certain electrical amount, the Engineer will provide a 0.05 Electrical charge per second.

Level 1: Active when the craft is below 5 electric charge

Level 2: Active when the craft is below 25 electric charge

Level 3: Active when the craft is below 50 electric charge

 

2 – Engine overdrive: Causes an engine to produce more thrust (only at max throttle) until throttled down (even if slightly), but causes it to produce 5 times more heat. Liquid fuel consumption rises accordingly.

Level 1: Produces 40% more thrust

Level 2: Produces 60% more thrust

Level 3: Produces 80% more thrust

 

3 – Redundant parts: Reduces craft mass by optimizing redundancy in its parts (Doesn’t reduce fuel and resource mass).

Level 1: Reduces mass by 7%

Level 2: Reduces mass by 11%

Level 3: Reduces mass by 15%

 

 

 

4 – ExKavation expert: Increases drill yield

Level 1: 5x yield increase

Level 2: 10x yield increase

Level 3: 20x yield increase

 

5 – Geo Surveyor: When using narrow band scanner, can pinpoint spots with extreme ore density. Can be used limited number of times per mission. (Active)

Level 1: Can be used 1 per mission

Level 2: Can be used 2 per mission

Level 3: Can be used 4 per mission

 

6 – Drill overdrive: Causes a drill to go into overdrive consuming more 5 times more electricity for 10 times the ore yield (Calculated after bonuses from ExKavation expert, if any). The engineer must be on Eva next to the drill at all times. Limited number of uses per mission. (Active)

Level 1: Can be used 1 per mission

Level 2: Can be used 2 per mission

Level 3: Can be used 4 per mission

 

 

 

7 – Hull integrity: Increases craft heat and impact resistence (Affects reentry and overheat).

Level 1: Increases heat resistence by 30% and impact resistence by 50%

Level 2: Increases heat resistence by 40% and impact resistence by 100%

Level 3: Increases heat resistence by 50% and impact resistence by 150%

 

8 – Molecular refinement: Increases the efficiency of waste recycling machines

Level 1: Increases efficiency by 5%

Level 1: Increases efficiency by 7.5%

Level 1: Increases efficiency by 10%

 

9 – Prototype: Can use any part from the tech tree at a larger price if it’s only 1 tech node away from your currently owed tech nodes. Only 1 prototype part allowed per craft.

Level 1: 40x bigger price

Level 2: 30x bigger price

Level 3: 20x bigger price

 

 

 

10 – World Engine: Unlocks the World Engine tech node (4000 science)

A giant heavy machinery (100 or so tons) that once landed on a planet would use huge amounts of power and ore from underneath it to produce a breathable atmosphere making bringing oxygen not needed, and enabling air intake functionality on space planes. Can require more than 1 world engine depending on the size of the planet (Duna would require 1).

It would also require a special part to construct 1 (such as ore from a specific place of a specific planet). Requires a level 10 Engineer aboard to operate. As of now work in progress, do suggest the details (May include additional parts in the tech node if needed)

 

Edited July 23, 2016 by Unfawkable

[Ippo]

inb4 "elven boots of major thrust" . I guess you were not around at that time, but trust me... bad subject to bring up. Your proposal is very similar to the original pitch by SQUAD, which was flamed to death by the forum (first and foremost, by me). The idea that the crew can change the very physics of the hardware is nonsense and does not fit at all in a game about science and technology.

[Andem]

I can see this being very... dangerous. say a pilot with a high skill reduces drag, then BOOM! Your capsule just hit the ground at a km/s because you couldn't slow down during reentry. Besides, as @Ippo said above, a pilot, an engineer, a scientist, no matter how good at their jobs they are, cannot change the laws of physics.

[pandaman]

I think there's some merit in the structure of your idea, but as others have said, changing the laws of physics is just not the way to go.

With some thought as to what your skills could be without giving 'magic powers' then you may have the foundation of a workable idea.

[Unfawkable]

Ahh, but to your surprise I completely agree. And I've tried to somehow avoid this, but as it turns out it's not easy to come up with 30 different skills when most of the mechanics in the game are hard coded physics. So I improvised to fill in all the skills. BUT, they really don't have to remain if better alternatives are thought of. Don't look at the suggestion by the suggested stuff that breaks physics, but rather the level up system it's based upon.

If all else fails, I'll try to reduce the number of skills and the size of the skill tree itself, but the concept would remain the same/similar.

 

1 hour ago, Andem said:

I can see this being very... dangerous. say a pilot with a high skill reduces drag, then BOOM! Your capsule just hit the ground at a km/s because you couldn't slow down during reentry. Besides, as @Ippo said above, a pilot, an engineer, a scientist, no matter how good at their jobs they are, cannot change the laws of physics.

 

This could be a problem, true. I guess one solution would be an entire skill tree dialogue where you can toggle passives on and off.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Unfawkable

[ShotgunNinja]

The skill tree idea is cool. I had something similar on the design phase since forever. The problem (and I think the reason stock experience system is so poor) is that its difficult to find skills to unlock (as you have noticed by now). The only hope for a project like this is to find skills to unlock from other mods. Things like increasing thrust or generating resources just don't fit. However the miriad of mods can come with additional mechanics, that can somehow provide these skills (eg: an Engineer ability to repair solar panels, or to assemble components - you get the idea). So my suggestion is this:

- skills descriptions can be specified in a ConfigNode
- a simple API for other mods to query what skills are enabled
- the mod became a GUI, an API and a serialization system for skills, and that's it
- only 1 or 2 skills per-level, and a choice do not exclude future choices (ala XCOM)

Hope this is helpful, cheers and good luck.
 

[TheSaint]

I think if you want to develop a realistic skills mechanic you need to look at skills in real life. For starters, do away with classes completely. Classes are a ridiculous idea rooted in the dark old days of 1st Edition Basic Dungeons & Dragons. In real life there is no reason at all why a pilot couldn't learn how to fix an engine, if he put the time and effort into studying how. So I think that as a Kerbal gains experience they should just gain points that can be put towards skills in any area. If they want to be a great pilot, put all their experience into piloting. If they want to be jack-of-all-trades, put points into all three areas. I think it would also give players a little more investment into their Kerbals as characters they are putting thought and planning into rather than just expendable seat fillers. 

As far as skill effects, again, look to real life. As a pilot you start off in a simple single-engine plane. Then you graduate to multi-engine. Then to instrument flying. Then jets. Etcetera. So as your skill increases, the size and complexity of the craft you are qualified to pilot increases. So maybe for the pilot skill set we should be looking at a part count limit on the craft they can fly that increases as their skill increases. Or maybe a limit on the number of engines it can have. Maybe pilots can stack, so having a co-pilot increases your part/engine count by 50% of the lowest skill level, or something like that. 

Engineers, same thing. As their skills increase, the complexity of the components they can repair increases. Maybe each part needs an assigned complexity rating (maybe based on its location in the tech tree) that determines what level of engineer is required to repair it. Maybe certain parts (like nuclear power plants or ISRU) require the presence of an engineer (possibly of a certain skill level) to function. 

For scientists, you can assign complexity ratings to experiments, you must have a scientist of X skill level to perform this experiment. You could (if you wanted to up the complexity) introduce specialties as well. So you could have one experiment that requires a skill of Geologist-1 and another experiment that requires Physics-2. 

With probes you can make this system even more interesting. Give your probe cores program slots. Each program slot accepts a skill "cartridge". If you want your probe to be able to pilot itself, you have to equip it with a Pilot cartridge. If you want it to perform a specific experiment you have to equip it with a Science cartridge. Larger probe cores have more slots and can perform more functions (but weigh more, use more energy, etc.) As your tech advances, your cartridges gain higher skill levels. Now instead of just slapping any old probe core in your probe you'll actually have to think about what you want your probe to do and what your tech is capable of supporting. (Granted, this mechanic isn't terribly realistic from a computer science perspective. But it is closer to reality than, "I just slap a probe core on there and it does whatever I want it to.")  

I don't know if it's even feasible to implement any of this in KSP, given the constraints of what is already there. But if I were designing a skill system for KSP, that's what it would look like. 

[Unfawkable]

18 hours ago, ShotgunNinja said:

The skill tree idea is cool. I had something similar on the design phase since forever. The problem (and I think the reason stock experience system is so poor) is that its difficult to find skills to unlock (as you have noticed by now). The only hope for a project like this is to find skills to unlock from other mods. Things like increasing thrust or generating resources just don't fit. However the miriad of mods can come with additional mechanics, that can somehow provide these skills (eg: an Engineer ability to repair solar panels, or to assemble components - you get the idea). So my suggestion is this:

- skills descriptions can be specified in a ConfigNode
- a simple API for other mods to query what skills are enabled
- the mod became a GUI, an API and a serialization system for skills, and that's it
- only 1 or 2 skills per-level, and a choice do not exclude future choices (ala XCOM)

Hope this is helpful, cheers and good luck.
 

This did occur to me, but I still wanted to have a concrete example. It occurred to me during coming up with the ideas that it would be a suitable tool for modders, a framework for a skill system that everyone who mods can use it however he wants. That would actually make the job easier, I'd just have to come up with a better number system.

17 hours ago, TheSaint said:

I think if you want to develop a realistic skills mechanic you need to look at skills in real life. For starters, do away with classes completely. Classes are a ridiculous idea rooted in the dark old days of 1st Edition Basic Dungeons & Dragons. In real life there is no reason at all why a pilot couldn't learn how to fix an engine, if he put the time and effort into studying how. So I think that as a Kerbal gains experience they should just gain points that can be put towards skills in any area. If they want to be a great pilot, put all their experience into piloting. If they want to be jack-of-all-trades, put points into all three areas. I think it would also give players a little more investment into their Kerbals as characters they are putting thought and planning into rather than just expendable seat fillers. 

As far as skill effects, again, look to real life. As a pilot you start off in a simple single-engine plane. Then you graduate to multi-engine. Then to instrument flying. Then jets. Etcetera. So as your skill increases, the size and complexity of the craft you are qualified to pilot increases. So maybe for the pilot skill set we should be looking at a part count limit on the craft they can fly that increases as their skill increases. Or maybe a limit on the number of engines it can have. Maybe pilots can stack, so having a co-pilot increases your part/engine count by 50% of the lowest skill level, or something like that. 

Engineers, same thing. As their skills increase, the complexity of the components they can repair increases. Maybe each part needs an assigned complexity rating (maybe based on its location in the tech tree) that determines what level of engineer is required to repair it. Maybe certain parts (like nuclear power plants or ISRU) require the presence of an engineer (possibly of a certain skill level) to function. 

For scientists, you can assign complexity ratings to experiments, you must have a scientist of X skill level to perform this experiment. You could (if you wanted to up the complexity) introduce specialties as well. So you could have one experiment that requires a skill of Geologist-1 and another experiment that requires Physics-2. 

With probes you can make this system even more interesting. Give your probe cores program slots. Each program slot accepts a skill "cartridge". If you want your probe to be able to pilot itself, you have to equip it with a Pilot cartridge. If you want it to perform a specific experiment you have to equip it with a Science cartridge. Larger probe cores have more slots and can perform more functions (but weigh more, use more energy, etc.) As your tech advances, your cartridges gain higher skill levels. Now instead of just slapping any old probe core in your probe you'll actually have to think about what you want your probe to do and what your tech is capable of supporting. (Granted, this mechanic isn't terribly realistic from a computer science perspective. But it is closer to reality than, "I just slap a probe core on there and it does whatever I want it to.")  

I don't know if it's even feasible to implement any of this in KSP, given the constraints of what is already there. But if I were designing a skill system for KSP, that's what it would look like. 

 

If it was to be done in a manner of a tool for other mods, I think it would be best to actually keep both options. To choose how many classes you have and how skills are given, or no classes at all.