Disconnect science from tech research

[Wjolcz]

Seriously, it's dumb. Why do I have to go places to unlock more parts? It's just limiting and nothing else.

Imagine a career save in which you decide that you will be creating atmospheric SSTOs from the start and progress that way. Oh, wait... You can't! Why? Because you apparently have to visit all the Mun's biomes in order to unlock the parts you need!

There are better ways to do it. Money and time is what works in real life and it would not only work in KSP too, but also give more flexibility.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Veeltch

[Sputnik 1]

On 8/29/2016 at 5:12 AM, Veeltch said:

Seriously, it's dumb. Why do I have to go places to unlock more parts? It's just limiting and nothing else.

Imagine a career save in which you decide that you will be creating atmospheric SSTOs from the start and progress that way. Oh, wait... You can't! Why? Because you apparently have to visit all the Mun's biomes in order to unlock the parts you need!

There are better ways to do it. Money and time is what works in real life and it would not only work in KSP too, but also give more flexibility.

Thats why there is sandbox mode, no space program starts with "future" technologies, you have have to build your way to the better techs, however I can also pull the "there is probably a mod for that" card.

[tater]

Career is supposed to tell a story. There needs to be some suspension of disbelief in a career mode. Having to "do science" to invent ladders kinda throws that out the window.

[Wjolcz]

3 hours ago, Sputnik 1 said:

Thats why there is sandbox mode, no space program starts with "future" technologies, you have have to build your way to the better techs, however I can also pull the "there is probably a mod for that" card.

You say "future technologies" as if KSP was supposed to be historically accurate. It shouldn't be, but it seems like the devs couldn't make up their minds and that's why the tree is a mess now.

It also depends on how you look at it. Not all space companies start with a sounding rocket, or a Mk1 capsule. Some go directly for SSTOs, like that british company working on Skylon.

But there's no point in discussing all this as career will never change, so let's just sit and watch devs add more adobe blocks of different colours. AFAIK, career mode is considered "good enough", so who cares?

[Corona688]

If not that, what do you want?  If the tree is discarded, and not all tech is available from the first, some other game logic will be needed to unlock parts.  I'm not sure what your suggestion for that is.

[ZooNamedGames]

*ignore*

Edited August 31, 2016 by ZooNamedGames

[Wjolcz]

27 minutes ago, Corona688 said:

If not that, what do you want?  If the tree is discarded, and not all tech is available from the first, some other game logic will be needed to unlock parts.  I'm not sure what your suggestion for that is.

Funds and time. A system that uses these things to unlock the tree. And depending on what kind of branch you've picked you do things that make you progress in that branch.

So here's an example:

You want to do jets first. That will involve exploration of Kerbin. You go into the Admin Building and pick a program that focuses on that. It won't give you much money for doing this, because it's here, on Kerbin, but that's fine. Jets are cheap. So you go down the tech tree's jet branch and have fun on your home planet. Doing missions that interest you, flying there and back, scanning things, hopping out of the atmosphere for science and stuff like that.

But then you decide it's time to explore those round things in the sky. You pick a program titled "Kerbin Orbital Program", or "Mun Program", or sth like that and it gives you enough money that let's you open either manned or unmanned rocketry tree branch. And then you go out exploring space. As simple as that.

That can't be done with science points.

Edited August 31, 2016 by Veeltch

[Corona688]

9 minutes ago, Veeltch said:

Funds and time. A system that uses these things to unlock the tree.

I see.  So different strategies essentially give you different tech trees instead of the one great-big tree, and all it takes to unlock is money.  Is this a reasonable summary or have I got it ass backwards?

Edited August 31, 2016 by Corona688

[Wjolcz]

11 minutes ago, Corona688 said:

I see.  So different strategies essentially give you different tech trees instead of the one great-big tree, and all it takes to unlock is money.  Is this a reasonable summary or have I got it ass backwards?

Well, kind of.

Either one tree branching out early on, or multiple trees like the WarThunder ones. Some would be cheaper (time and money wise) to unlock, but you wouldn't be able to go very far with them (jets/SSTOs/rovers), some would be more expensive (rocketry in general) but would also give you higher rewards. (exploring a crater on Tylo is more of an achievement than taking samples from in a nearby pond on Kerbin).

And same about programs: you want to do bigger things, you get more funds to do them. And missions' (generated by the program; much like Strategia does this) rewards should also be higher if you want to go exploring Laythe's oceans than Kerbin's.

Edited August 31, 2016 by Veeltch

[Diche Bach]

Make a mod that does what you want. Squad's design is fine for the stock game.

[Wjolcz]

2 minutes ago, Diche Bach said:

Make a mod that does what you want. Squad's design is fine for the stock game.

I'll read this as "KSP doesn't need to be a quality product. It has mods to get the job done".

[Diche Bach]

Just now, Veeltch said:

I'll read this as "KSP doesn't need to be a quality product. It has mods to get the job done".

I'll read this as, "I'm a twit." Have a good one.

[linuxgurugamer]

The game is fine for many people.  Sorry it isn't fine for you.  But that's why there are mods, to let you customize it for what you want.

It really sounds like you are looking for KSP to be like other games.  It isn't. 

Take a look at Strategia, and the contract packs.

[Kerbart]

On 8/29/2016 at 6:12 AM, Veeltch said:

Money and time is what works in real life

Not really. Technological advances are based on many things, not in the first place what already had been invented. If only time and money were relevant, then why did 13^th century african ruler Mansa Musa not put men on the moon? He certainly had the money for it, being the richest ruler ever (adjusted for inflation).

More important, KSP is not "real life." Career is a game mode. If you don't like unlocking technology, play Sandbox instead.

[Wjolcz]

12 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

Not really. Technological advances are based on many things, not in the first place what already had been invented. If only time and money were relevant, then why did 13^th century african ruler Mansa Musa not put men on the moon? He certainly had the money for it, being the richest ruler ever (adjusted for inflation).

Poor argument. As if in 20th century we stopped using money and started investing science points into technology research instead.

12 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

More important, KSP is not "real life." Career is a game mode.

True. I'm not saying it should be just like real life, but there are certain things in KSP that are not like real life (science points) that become useless after a while. Why create a currency that becomes useless after the tree is done if the whole system can be designed so it doesn't need it in the first place and works perfectly fine?

Seriously, am I the only one here seeing that science points actually limit the gameplay instead of improving it and giving more flexibility?

12 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

If you don't like unlocking technology, play Sandbox instead.

Been doing that since version 0.11. When was it released? 2010, or 2011?

Edited August 31, 2016 by Veeltch

[tater]

So since career is a game mode, we have to either like it as is---unlike any other game feature---or play sandbox (which is unlike any sort of career mode)? That's like saying that when they first added plane parts, "hey, it's a ROCKET game, don't suggest plane parts, go play something else!"

Career mode has never been good game design, and it adding more bells and whistles to it has not made it better, it's just got more bells and whistles.

[The Optimist]

4 hours ago, Diche Bach said:

I'll read this as, "I'm a twit." Have a good one.

Want some fries on that salt?

[Van Disaster]

The original science mode always seemed ( I'm not sure if it was ever actually confirmed as such ) to be a lengthy tutorial. There are other tech trees with seperate branch paths around, well worth trying.

Isn't there a strategy to buy science, effectively? I never use the things so I don't know, but it seems likely.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Van Disaster

[Stargate525]

9 hours ago, tater said:

Career is supposed to tell a story.

Someone ought to tell SQUAD that, if you think it's working like that. KSP's career mode has always struck me more akin to a 'campaign mode' in citybuilders or simulation games; no real story, just objectives and hoops to unluck towards what you start with in sandbox. Making it less of a toy, more of an actual game.

[tater]

46 minutes ago, Stargate525 said:

Someone ought to tell SQUAD that, if you think it's working like that. KSP's career mode has always struck me more akin to a 'campaign mode' in citybuilders or simulation games; no real story, just objectives and hoops to unluck towards what you start with in sandbox. Making it less of a toy, more of an actual game.

ALL campaign modes "tell a story." That does NOT mean that you follow some designer's story, it means that your career/campaign, can read like a history that makes sense. 

Campaign mode in Silent Hunter tells a story. The story of a particular submarine, under a particular commander. If you kept a detailed log of a patrol, it would look rather like a real patrol log. You'd spend a couple weeks sailing from Pearl to get to your patrol zone. You'd dive because you saw aircraft a couple times (much in time warp, obviously). You'd make a sonar contact and chase it to no avail. You'd get spotted by a seaplane who bombs you as you dive. Minor splinter damage, nothing to worry about. In that game, you'd know who was on watch, who is the best guy to have in the engine room if things get ugly, which guys got citations after last patrol, etc, ad nauseum. TW:Empire tells the story of your nation fighting whatever other nations you are fighting.

I just don't get that feeling with KSP.

Day 1, Dawn: We launch a contraption after taking an EVA report on the pad... for science! We learned a lot, and developed some new stuff walking between the hanger and the pad.

Day 1, 5 minutes after dawn: We built a larger rocket and sent it pretty far out to sea before recovering Jeb. Woot!

Day 1, 15 minutes after dawn: We built a multi-stage rocket, and hit space! We developed more stuff in the time it took to get Jeb home from the next continent over---which was happily virtually instantaneous for Jeb, he didn't even have time to lower the tray table.

Day 1, 30 minutes after dawn: Orbit!

Day 2: On the way to the Mun!

 

 

[cfds]

At the moment the career mode has two good features

- you do not start with all parts available
- you do not have infinite money

Everything else about it is pretty much garbage. Flying to the Mun to learn all about ladders is just ridiculous, that you do it on day one just after lunch even more so.

We need pacing: construction of rockets needs to take time (I cannot imagine a game without KCT), as does research. And I agree with Veeltch, research should be done with time and money. Returning samples from the Mun should not be required to invent a ladder but it can have indirect effects: more reputation and such more money, more people to want to become astronauts, more people who want to become scientists or engineers (resulting in cheaper research/construction or higher caps).
 

[Sharpy]

@cfds

1. invest in administration building, bringing it to level 2.

2. Activate "Outsourced R&D", commitment - however high you want it,  going above 60% would starve you out of funds.

There, no need to bring Mun samples to learn about ladders. Cash gets diverted towards R&D.

You can also activate "Unpaid research program" and your reputation gains you scientific progress too.

Since both require time, that does automatically make obtaining science takes time.

[KerbMav]

The game simply omits parts of a process:

What is the KSP supposed to do with its science points? Sell books for money? Maybe it does!

The KSP gathers science data to feed the nerds back home, who in return crack their heads over new tech for bigger missions. It is more a give and take than real inhouse R&D - or a "science from space motivates them to think of new tech" thing.

So, the KSC either fuels the minds of its techies or sells the data (by strategies) for fame and/or money.

It may be a simple design choice, but it is not an as unreasonalbe one as some seem to think it is.

Also, KSP was never intended to be a 100% realistic representation of real life space econonmics, the life on Kerbin follows different rules.

[Wjolcz]

11 hours ago, The Optimist said:

Want some fries on that salt?

I am the saltiest person in this thread! Don't you dare taking my merits from me!

Seriously though, I had a bad day. I'll try to keep my tone down this time. Mods are probably watching me already.

8 hours ago, tater said:

Campaign mode in Silent Hunter tells a story. The story of a particular submarine, under a particular commander. If you kept a detailed log of a patrol, it would look rather like a real patrol log. You'd spend a couple weeks sailing from Pearl to get to your patrol zone. You'd dive because you saw aircraft a couple times (much in time warp, obviously). You'd make a sonar contact and chase it to no avail. You'd get spotted by a seaplane who bombs you as you dive. Minor splinter damage, nothing to worry about. In that game, you'd know who was on watch, who is the best guy to have in the engine room if things get ugly, which guys got citations after last patrol, etc, ad nauseum. TW:Empire tells the story of your nation fighting whatever other nations you are fighting.

I need to get back to Silent Hunter at some point. Even though I was too young to understand how to reload torpedos and what was going on I remember having fun.

4 hours ago, KerbMav said:

Also, KSP was never intended to be a 100% realistic representation of real life space econonmics, the life on Kerbin follows different rules.

And nobody says it should, but real life economy works. KSP's doesn't, because there's too much to deal with. We have to juggle that science currency after the tree is done. Why? The whole thing could work perfectly without it.

The whole strategy system was introduced to deal with the problem of science points being useless after some point. If we didn't have them there would be no need for strategies, as the whole system would autmatically balance itself instead of needing player's input all the time.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Veeltch

[tater]

4 hours ago, Sharpy said:

@cfds

1. invest in administration building, bringing it to level 2.

2. Activate "Outsourced R&D", commitment - however high you want it,  going above 60% would starve you out of funds.

There, no need to bring Mun samples to learn about ladders. Cash gets diverted towards R&D.

You can also activate "Unpaid research program" and your reputation gains you scientific progress too.

Since both require time, that does automatically make obtaining science takes time.

This shows the lack of thought/playtesting in the career mode. You showed that you unlocked the bulk of the tree in what, 24 minutes?