[1.12.x] Konstruction! Weldable ports, servos, cranes, and magnets!

[Kobymaru]

54 minutes ago, dboi88 said:

@Kobymaru I'm getting the similar behavior. With a test craft in orbit there just isn't any magnetic force with snap turned on, as soon as i turn it off the magnet turns on. I'd recommend putting a purely stock test craft save onto github as an issue for RD to look at.

Thanks, I will try to do that. Which leads me back to my original question: how is it actually supposed to work?

Is there supposed to be a roll force with both angle snap on and off? Or just when it's on?

Am I correct in assuming that the 0° orientation is the one where the black rectangle in the docking port is "up" on both ports?

Assume I set the angle to 90° on port A and I am looking from port A towards port B. Do I see the black rectangle of port B on the left, or on the right?

What happens if I set angles on both ports?

What does "Reset Acquire" mean?

 

Edited March 1, 2017 by Kobymaru

[dboi88]

Just now, Kobymaru said:

Thanks, I will try to do that. Which leads me back to my original question: how is it actually supposed to work?

Exactly as per the explanation in the KSPedia.

1 minute ago, Kobymaru said:

Is there supposed to be a roll force with both angle snap on and off? Or just when it's on?

I'm not sure.

2 minutes ago, Kobymaru said:

Am I correct in assuming that the 0° orientation is the one where the black rectangle in the docking port is "up" on both ports?

Yes

3 minutes ago, Kobymaru said:

Assume I set the angle to 90° on port A and I am looking from port A towards port B. Do I see the black rectangle of port B on the left, or on the right?

IIRC on the left

3 minutes ago, Kobymaru said:

What happens if I set angles on both ports?

IIRC nothing, only the settings on the focused port count.

4 minutes ago, Kobymaru said:

What does "Reset Acquire" mean?

When you undock you cannot redock until you've moved a certain distance away from the dock(otherwise you'd just instantly redock every time you undocked) reset acquire cancels that block and reacquires the docking port again allowing you to undock and redock without moving  away from the dock. IIRC the stock distance is 3 or maybe 5m.

[Jebs_SY]

I can say that I often want to dock with angle snap, so I turn it on. I often (always?) didn't get magnetic aquire. Then I toggle "angle snap" fast 2 times and they aquire. Don't know. Is the button maybe inverse?

Edited March 1, 2017 by Jebs_SY

[gowthamn]

Confused on how angle snap works.

If one of the ports is the stock port and the other is the port from this mod, then will angle snap work? Or will docking work in the first place? Its not docking for me.

Also, the specified angle is with respect to what?

If both "control from here port" and "target port" has angles specified, which angle will it use?

Edited March 2, 2017 by gowthamn

[Nergal8617]

58 minutes ago, gowthamn said:

If one of the ports is the stock port and the other is the port from this mod, then will angle snap work?

If I remember correctly, stock ports do not work with Konstruction ports at all.

[RoverDude]

That's correct - Konstruction ports only link with Konstruction ports.

[Space_Coyote]

I've has been having an issue with Konstruciton everytime the USI Tools Update. Let me give you an example. Things were working in USI Tools 15 and Konstuction 1.11.0 which is the latest one done. After the install any thing that had used the items or had "Open" or unused ports (these are ports that have been attached to one item but not another (For future space station expansions) did not work at all. (Now in the latest version even the Konstruction Tab is now Missing.. I'm just wondering if this is a reoccuring issue withwhen USI Tools updates?

 

This also happened when I was using 1.10.0 of Konstruction anhd the tools were fine in Update 8.12 and 8.13 but the moment 8.14 .0 hit, the game removed the tab from the diles as well, a complete reinstall was necessary again on this example.

 

(Next time this happens I'll try to get a more detailed bug report, but this is somethig that is happening every 1 to 2 updates of USI Tools, (or is it the Community Resource Pack that is doing the issue?  

 

Space_Coyote 

[ErevanGaming]

Hi everybody! =)

 

Was just wondering if anyone here used the Konstruction parts as Canadarm styles robotic arms with shuttles? If you have, may you share how they handle with deploying and grabbing space station segments?

 

 

Regards and thanks in advance =)

[Space_Coyote]

Well one of the errors I get is when this happens

 

I create a spacecraft and it has open Construction Ports  (For Future expansion)  MOst notably Construction Port2

 

When I restart after doing this the issue is that the error message says that certain items using "Construction Port 2 Can not be used and are removed from the in flight list. Also any vehicles that were built using a part actually is told that it can not be used 

 

(The Port I am using is the Clamp-O-Tron Sr. Version of the docking port it also happens with the Junior and Regular Clamptorn (Konstruction) versions..

 

Edited Note: Not using the Canadarm unit as this is just ports for expansion on any space station.

 

Hope this helps in fixing the issues.

 

SPace_Coyote

Edited March 4, 2017 by Space_Coyote
additional Information

[maranble14]

I constructed a PAL crane to use to aid in my base assembly, and when I landed it on the surface of the mun, I am getting strange ghost forces that are preventing this thing from stabilizing on all fours correctly. It's like the PAL wants to sit vertically for some reason. The issue seems to be caused by the PAL Adjustable wheel. I got it to stabilize properly using the deployable stabilizers, but it absolutely refuses to balance on all 4s when I have the wheels deployed. Here is a link to a video demonstrating the bug. I have tried both loading and unloading the ballasts on the back and it had no effect. Any suggestions? Thanks.

[maranble14]

10 minutes ago, maranble14 said:

I constructed a PAL crane to use to aid in my base assembly, and when I landed it on the surface of the mun, I am getting strange ghost forces that are preventing this thing from stabilizing on all fours correctly. It's like the PAL wants to sit vertically for some reason. The issue seems to be caused by the PAL Adjustable wheel. I got it to stabilize properly using the deployable stabilizers, but it absolutely refuses to balance on all 4s when I have the wheels deployed. Here is a link to a video demonstrating the bug. I have tried both loading and unloading the ballasts on the back and it had no effect. Any suggestions? Thanks.

And here is a 2nd video that is an even better demonstration of the bug! This time it starts out stabilized, and then the wheels just freak out on their own.
 

 

[maranble14]

25 minutes ago, maranble14 said:

And here is a 2nd video that is an even better demonstration of the bug! This time it starts out stabilized, and then the wheels just freak out on their own.
 

 

UPDATE: I have tested the issue with the regular PAL wheels (not the adjustable lateral ones) and the issue is gone. So it appears to be isolated to just that one part. I've also noticed that the the motor on the wheel appears to be spinning even when there's no user input. This appears to be the issue causing the vehicle to flip.

[Jebs_SY]

Regarding non docking ports - no magnetic force:
Anyone know, how to treat angle snap correctly? As I already reported, I had some issues, that the magnetic force doesn't kick in. I usually approach now with angle snap on, 0°. When coming into magnetic range, with DPAI says usually <1° offset angle,  I usually have NO magnetic force. Now I hit "angle snap" twice, and in 99% of the case, the magnetic force kicks in, then.

Unfortunately, after fiddling around with that a little bit, I come to a state, where they never dock again.

Now I use 180+ mods, and yes, it could be a mod conflict. On the other hand, in the last days I saw on twitch OzzyInSpace was frustrated, by the construction ports not docking, and the same was true for sumodeluxe on twitch. That's a bummer, I am sure these guys would create really nice stuff with theses things.

I think we should be able to lift this secret, sooner or later. Do you guys (other than the reports above) have no such problems with the construction port and angle snap? Or is anyone have some more experience / woraround knowledge regarding this issue?

One example of the case where the magnetic force doesnt kick in. And another example where I have roll force before a dock, even when angle snap is off. I sometimes wonder if the button is inverse, or if the logic behind the button is not closely tied to the button state itself?!

Edited March 9, 2017 by Jebs_SY

[RoverDude]

@maranble14 - something looks a bit odd with those wheels (specifically the extra deploy option), will have to take a look.

[Kobymaru]

On 9.3.2017 at 3:13 PM, Jebs_SY said:

Regarding non docking ports - no magnetic force:
Anyone know, how to treat angle snap correctly? As I already reported, I had some issues, that the magnetic force doesn't kick in. I usually approach now with angle snap on, 0°. When coming into magnetic range, with DPAI says usually <1° offset angle,  I usually have NO magnetic force. Now I hit "angle snap" twice, and in 99% of the case, the magnetic force kicks in, then.

Unfortunately, after fiddling around with that a little bit, I come to a state, where they never dock again.

Now I use 180+ mods, and yes, it could be a mod conflict. On the other hand, in the last days I saw on twitch OzzyInSpace was frustrated, by the construction ports not docking, and the same was true for sumodeluxe on twitch. That's a bummer, I am sure these guys would create really nice stuff with theses things.

I think we should be able to lift this secret, sooner or later. Do you guys (other than the reports above) have no such problems with the construction port and angle snap? Or is anyone have some more experience / woraround knowledge regarding this issue?

One example of the case where the magnetic force doesnt kick in. And another example where I have roll force before a dock, even when angle snap is off. I sometimes wonder if the button is inverse, or if the logic behind the button is not closely tied to the button state itself?!

Yes, we have these issues - but unfortunately the info gets buried in this thread. For example, I posted this here:

I was hoping that @RoverDude might take a look at docking ports in general. A consise write-up of bugs and problems might be helpful to him, unfortunately that turns out to be quite difficult, because there is general confusion of how they are actually supposed to work.

 

@Jebs_SY you could scroll back a few pages, read our conversation and write up a nice Bug report that goes on GitHub.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Kobymaru

[slackitude]

I'm having a minor issue, mostly OCD related.  Konstruction is throwing some log errors which pop up when I load KSP. AFAICT, it's not affecting gameplay but I do see many more on-screen errors since I've added a lot of mods. 

[ERR 12:45:11.177] AssemblyLoader: Exception loading 'Konstruction': System.Reflection.ReflectionTypeLoadException: The classes in the module cannot be loaded.
  at (wrapper managed-to-native) System.Reflection.Assembly:GetTypes (bool)
  at System.Reflection.Assembly.GetTypes () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
  at AssemblyLoader.LoadAssemblies () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0

Additional information about this exception:

 System.TypeLoadException: Could not load type 'Konstruction.ServoMonitor_Editor' from assembly 'Konstruction, Version=0.0.0.0, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=null'.

 System.TypeLoadException: Could not load type 'Konstruction.ServoMonitor' from assembly 'Konstruction, Version=0.0.0.0, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=null'.

Thoughts? Edit: I'm on KSP 1.2.2, using CKAN for most of my mods, though I'm considering dropping it entirely.

Edited March 15, 2017 by slackitude

[Kobymaru]

Hi! I have done some mucking around with the construction ports, and I discovered several "sources of confusion". For reference, here is a quicksave file that you can use for testing:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1414175/ksp/konstruction-ports-oriented.sfs

 Both vessels have an antenna to easily see where the UP direction (aka the black square direction) is, and they are both oriented to each other so that you only have to do a gentle Push with RCS after you've set your port settings.

So first of all, turns out that *both* ports have to have Angle Snap enabled. If only one of them has the snap enabled (even if it's the currently controlled vessel), the ports will not ever acquire or dock, regardless of orientation. It has to be either both or none.

Second, in order for the ports to acquire or dock, they have to be *both* set to the same Angle setting.

Whether or not this is the intended behavior, that I cannot tell. But at the very least it should be mentioned in the Documentation, because I find that rather counterintuitive.

Third, I finally understood what the "Angle" setting for Angle Snap actually does. I thought that it would provide one angle that the ports can snap to, and that is the angle that I set there. Turns out that this is not the case. The Angle setting is the angle interval between snap points. For example, if you set the Angle setting to 45°, your ports can snap to 8 different angles: 0°, 45°, 90°, 135°, 180°, 225°, 270°, 315°. If you set it to 90°, your ports can snap to 0°, 90°, 180°, 270°.

On top of that, when Angle Snap is enabled on both crafts and the angle is set to 0 on both crafts, the ports "acquire" magnetically, but do not dock until the they both face the right way up (square is orientation). So far so good, this is expected behaviour presumably. However: when I turn on the roll force by setting "Port Roll" to a value, the ports start rolling alright - but in the wrong direction. When roll is enabled, they start rolling upside down  towards the 180° position. If your setting was 0°, your ports will never dock, because 180° is not a possible snap setting. I find this particularly confusing, because the "port roll" does not roll towards an angle where it is allowed to snap - it rolls towards the rather arbitrary and inconvenient angle of 180°, which might not even be a snap point.

It would be very nice if @RoverDude could confirm that these "confusion points" are intended behavior and this information should go on the Wiki and the KSPedia (shoutout to @dboi88), or if I should create GitHub Issues for them.

 

Edited March 15, 2017 by Kobymaru
Mention involved people

[dboi88]

33 minutes ago, Kobymaru said:

Hi! I have done some mucking around with the construction ports, and I discovered several "sources of confusion". For reference, here is a quicksave file that you can use for testing:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1414175/ksp/konstruction-ports-oriented.sfs

 Both vessels have an antenna to easily see where the UP direction (aka the black square direction) is, and they are both oriented to each other so that you only have to do a gentle Push with RCS after you've set your port settings.

So first of all, turns out that *both* ports have to have Angle Snap enabled. If only one of them has the snap enabled (even if it's the currently controlled vessel), the ports will not ever acquire or dock, regardless of orientation. It has to be either both or none.

Second, in order for the ports to acquire or dock, they have to be *both* set to the same Angle setting.

Whether or not this is the intended behavior, that I cannot tell. But at the very least it should be mentioned in the Documentation, because I find that rather counterintuitive.

Third, I finally understood what the "Angle" setting for Angle Snap actually does. I thought that it would provide one angle that the ports can snap to, and that is the angle that I set there. Turns out that this is not the case. The Angle setting is the angle interval between snap points. For example, if you set the Angle setting to 45°, your ports can snap to 8 different angles: 0°, 45°, 90°, 135°, 180°, 225°, 270°, 315°. If you set it to 90°, your ports can snap to 0°, 90°, 180°, 270°.

On top of that, when Angle Snap is enabled on both crafts and the angle is set to 0 on both crafts, the ports "acquire" magnetically, but do not dock until the they both face the right way up (square is orientation). So far so good, this is expected behaviour presumably. However: when I turn on the roll force by setting "Port Roll" to a value, the ports start rolling alright - but in the wrong direction. When roll is enabled, they start rolling upside down  towards the 180° position. If your setting was 0°, your ports will never dock, because 180° is not a possible snap setting. I find this particularly confusing, because the "port roll" does not roll towards an angle where it is allowed to snap - it rolls towards the rather arbitrary and inconvenient angle of 180°, which might not even be a snap point.

It would be very nice if @RoverDude could confirm that these "confusion points" are intended behavior and this information should go on the Wiki and the KSPedia (shoutout to @dboi88), or if I should create GitHub Issues for them.

 

I could be wrong but I don't believe that most of that is intended behaviour. I've got lots to update on the KSPedia entry and very little time at the minute. Hopefully there will be a consensus on this by the time I get around to it.

[RoverDude]

2 hours ago, dboi88 said:

I could be wrong but I don't believe that most of that is intended behaviour. I've got lots to update on the KSPedia entry and very little time at the minute. Hopefully there will be a consensus on this by the time I get around to it.

I can answer some of it - bear in mind this is all 100% stock behavior.

Snap needs to be on for both.  Would not be surprised if the angle has to be the same (not sure if a multiple works).  And I thought it was angle difference as well not absolute angle, though the roll behavior I am not sure on - again, I just expose stuff stock already has

[Kobymaru]

11 hours ago, RoverDude said:

I can answer some of it - bear in mind this is all 100% stock behavior.

Thanks, that's already important information. Now we can adjust the documentation and "spread the word"

11 hours ago, RoverDude said:

though the roll behavior I am not sure on - again, I just expose stuff stock already has

That's a shame though. It's gonna be hard to report bugs for stock, since none of the stock ports actually have a roll force and don't snap either. Is there any way this is fixable from MKS?

 

14 hours ago, dboi88 said:

I've got lots to update on the KSPedia entry and very little time at the minute. Hopefully there will be a consensus on this by the time I get around to it.

No worries, whenever you get around to it. I'll see if I can summarize the behavior in the Wiki, so you have some text building blocks that you can copy and paste.

[dboi88]

1 minute ago, Kobymaru said:

No worries, whenever you get around to it. I'll see if I can summarize the behavior in the Wiki, so you have some text building blocks that you can copy and paste.

That would makes updating it infinitely easier.

[FirroSeranel]

I have a question about the forklift...

Whenever I've tried using it, only one of the tines actually interacts with the object I'm trying to lift, while the other just clips through, making it basically impossible to use. Is there something I'm missing?

[FirroSeranel]

@RoverDude,

I have a suggestion/feedback, which you can take or leave as you wish.

Would a more simplified (from the user's perspective) interface for the PAL Adjustable Wheels be feasible?

I don't know how feasible this would be, but... here's my dream for them, or for the normal PAL Wheels:

They'd behave exactly like the normal PAL Wheel (or simply replace them) in every respect (stow by folding up on top), but have one setting in the servo control that does some behind-the-scenes stuff with the individual joints (just like Stow and Deploy do now, only with sliders. Or not, for that matter; they could just as easily have two more preset buttons, where Stow would be as it is now, Deploy would be a very wide, low stance for over-land travel, and then settings to lift the underside of the Magnet module to be the right height for each of the major heights of modules).

Basically the only thing I (and probably most people) need them to do is be able to be height adjustable, and always be as wide as they can be at any given height. That way they can get all tall to pick up Duna modules like the exiting PAL wheel, can get lower to pick up Ranger Hubs, and get wide while low for stable long-distance travel. As it is, the normal PAL wheels are always tall, and thus hyper-specialized for exactly one thing (picking up Duna modules), and the Adjustable Wheels, while versatile, are very difficult to use and offer far too many controls, considering all I really want is a height slider on the PAL Wheels.

This would also solve the bug posted a page or two ago where the Adjustable Wheels' colliders seem to get snagged underground as they deploy, lifting the craft up on its rear.

Edit: Now all I'm getting with the Adustable Wheel when I try to use them, is a crazy bouncy spider dance.  Something's definitely not going well. I get the same sort of twitchy, jumpy instability with the Ranger Scout Landing Module as well...

Edited March 18, 2017 by FirroSeranel

[FirroSeranel]

Is there a mythical secret to getting the wheels to attach to the Akita Core's wheel mounts in situ with KAS? It only seems to think the main rectangular piece and the fuel tank actually exist, for surface attachment, so getting the wheel to actually go to the wheel node is next to impossible. Is this something that @RoverDude could somehow fix, by adjusting... I dunno, its collider or something, maybe?

[Freshmeat]

On 18/3/2017 at 10:35 AM, FirroSeranel said:

@RoverDude,

I have a suggestion/feedback, which you can take or leave as you wish.

Would a more simplified (from the user's perspective) interface for the PAL Adjustable Wheels be feasible?

I don't know how feasible this would be, but... here's my dream for them, or for the normal PAL Wheels:

They'd behave exactly like the normal PAL Wheel (or simply replace them) in every respect (stow by folding up on top), but have one setting in the servo control that does some behind-the-scenes stuff with the individual joints (just like Stow and Deploy do now, only with sliders. Or not, for that matter; they could just as easily have two more preset buttons, where Stow would be as it is now, Deploy would be a very wide, low stance for over-land travel, and then settings to lift the underside of the Magnet module to be the right height for each of the major heights of modules).

Basically the only thing I (and probably most people) need them to do is be able to be height adjustable, and always be as wide as they can be at any given height. That way they can get all tall to pick up Duna modules like the exiting PAL wheel, can get lower to pick up Ranger Hubs, and get wide while low for stable long-distance travel. As it is, the normal PAL wheels are always tall, and thus hyper-specialized for exactly one thing (picking up Duna modules), and the Adjustable Wheels, while versatile, are very difficult to use and offer far too many controls, considering all I really want is a height slider on the PAL Wheels.

This would also solve the bug posted a page or two ago where the Adjustable Wheels' colliders seem to get snagged underground as they deploy, lifting the craft up on its rear.

Edit: Now all I'm getting with the Adustable Wheel when I try to use them, is a crazy bouncy spider dance.  Something's definitely not going well. I get the same sort of twitchy, jumpy instability with the Ranger Scout Landing Module as well...

I beg to differ. I have made a base with a very tight fit between a set of fuel tanks (industrial scale refueling on Minmus). The only way I could do that was by being creative with leg positions.