Mycroft

What Facts Do We Know About The Devs Leaving?

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2 minutes ago, Andem said:

What. How can you even make that comparison? Especially in response to the statement you're addressing?

Because I'm a slightly drunken ass that is sick of people demanding Squad reveal information they have no right to.  Squad has communicated more than they needed to, and it's time for people to just get the hell over it and move on with their lives.

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22 minutes ago, razark said:

Because I'm a slightly drunken ass that is sick of people demanding Squad reveal information they have no right to.  Squad has communicated more than they needed to, and it's time for people to just get the hell over it and move on with their lives.

Alright. I can accept that, especially considering that the point is now moot.

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42 minutes ago, razark said:

Because I'm a slightly drunken ass that is sick of people demanding Squad reveal information they have no right to.  Squad has communicated more than they needed to, and it's time for people to just get the hell over it and move on with their lives.

Okay. I get that you are tired of this, but honestly, dude! Please try at least to be more polite! I guarantee you, I am just as sick, if not more, of this whole thing. I sifted through almost every post on the forums on this topic to get and update the OP. Collectively, that's almost 300 pages of reading! So yeah I'm sick of this, but I still try to make myself be nice to people. Please do us all a favor, and do the same. And as I've said time and time again, people have the right to clamor, and SQUAD has been allowing them to. You constantly say that this is SQUAD's forum, but you never seem to get that if SQUAD genuinely did not want us to discuss this, then they have the ability to lock down the forums, or just shut off the server connections. It's not a terribly sensible option, but if SQUAD was as easy to offend as you seem to think, they would do it in a heartbeat. Or, they could just subtly delete certain posts they didn't like, or they could ban people, or any number of things. But they haven't. Both parties are well within their rights. And if it's so harming to SQUAD, why not let them handle it, instead escalating things by making assertions. PLEASE let this dead horse die! If you're as tired of this as you say, why post at all on this topic? The controversy will die on its own, no need to help prolong it.

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What gets me is attitudes like the one above. Thing is, paying customers have certain rights. One of which is to ask and be clearly informed of the health and status of a product or company. If a customer who has paid a company money, that customer has every right and reasonable expectation to be told a fair answer to his or her question. A fact which flies in the face of some folks belief systems.

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21 minutes ago, Higgs said:

Thing is, paying customers have certain rights.

You do have a right to ask (at least, if they let you on their own property, these forums, where they set the rules and what rights you are entitled to). You do not have a right to know (and if they do tell you, count your blessings and call it good, because that's being more than generous when people's futures are potentially on the line.)

Edited by regex

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1 hour ago, Higgs said:

Thing is, paying customers have certain rights.

True.  They have the right to receive a product they paid for.  They have the right to expect the product they buy is as described.  They have the right to expect certain standards of safety and reliability.  They have the right to expect the product won't murder their families in their sleep.  If they buy blue paint, they have a reasonable expectation that the paint will not only not be red, but will also be paint.

The right to dig into a company's private business and employee relations is NOT one of them.

1 hour ago, Higgs said:

One of which is to ask and be clearly informed of the health and status of a product or company.

How many shares of stock do you own in Squad?  Buying a product does not make you a stakeholder.

1 hour ago, Higgs said:

[A] customer... has every right and reasonable expectation to be told a fair answer to his or her question.

If the question is a reasonable one to ask.  The availability of a product and the possible shipping options are.  The internal workings of a company are not.

 

 

1 hour ago, Mycroft said:

I still try to make myself be nice to people. Please do us all a favor, and do the same.

Time flows, as does the bourbon.  I am being nice.

1 hour ago, Mycroft said:

people have the right to clamor

Meh.  They have the right to do so somewhere else, this is Squad's personal turf here.  Anyway, Squad has posted a response.  Two devs have posted a response.  Those responses didn't admit that Squad is a bunch of overworked, oppressed peons lorded over by evil, money-grubbing management.  Oh well.  That's the way it is.  Continuing to demand a response after one has been given more response than one is due is ludicrous.

1 hour ago, Mycroft said:

You constantly say that this is SQUAD's forum

https://whois.icann.org/en/lookup?name=kerbalspaceprogram.com

1 hour ago, Mycroft said:

if SQUAD genuinely did not want us to discuss this, then they have the ability to lock down the forums

If they did, they'd have to deal with an even bigger headache.  That doesn't change to fact that this is their forum, and your the discussion/crapping on them is something they choose to tolerate, not something they have to tolerate.

1 hour ago, Mycroft said:

Both parties are well within their rights.

Because one has a right, does not mean that they are in the right.

Anyway, it's clear that one party is not within their rights.

1 hour ago, Mycroft said:

If you're as tired of this as you say, why post at all on this topic?

Because people say stupid things, and stupid needs to be challenged by correct information.

 

1 hour ago, Mycroft said:

PLEASE let this dead horse die!

Yes, let's let this horse lie unbeaten.  The easiest way to do that is for people to stop asking for that which they have no rights.

Edited by razark

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4 hours ago, razark said:

Because they have no reason to, nor does anyone here have any reason to expect them to communicate about this matter.

That's like saying Squad has not been very forward about posting naked selfies of their staff.  Of course they haven't, and no one here would think it appropriate to ask them to.

No it is not. 

But thank you for your excellent example of how to commit a logical fallacy. 

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10 minutes ago, Wallygator said:

No it is not.

I'm sorry, but how is expecting them to communicate effectively any information they have no responsibility to communicate a correct thing?

10 minutes ago, Wallygator said:

But thank you for your excellent example of how to commit a logical fallacy.

Any time.  I can be quite good at it.

(Argumentum ad absurdem is fun. Argumentum ab absurdem is this thread.)

Edited by razark

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I think we need to nip this discussion in the bud: 

Fact: People have the right to ask 'why' about the developers leaving.

Fact: SQUAD has the right to withhold any answer.

And no one has the right to an answer.

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8 minutes ago, Mycroft said:

I think we need to nip this discussion in the bud: 

Fact: People have the right to ask 'why' about the developers leaving.

Fact: SQUAD has the right to withhold any answer.

And no one has the right to an answer.

Fact: Squad and developers have not withheld an answer, they have addressed the situation already.  This is more answer than any deserve.

Edited by razark

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44 minutes ago, razark said:

I'm sorry, but how is expecting them to communicate effectively any information they have no responsibility to communicate a correct thing?

 

Because effective communication can occur regardless of what is or is not said. 

In this particular example (regarding the combination of devs leaving, a 1.2 announcement and the simultaneous uproar in the community...) it is clear to me (perhaps others as well) that the sequence of events did not occur in a manner characteristic of a controlled information release. This is an observation. I will let @Mycroft decide if it should show up on the OP list. 

But this "thread within a thread" is as good as done. Let us return to our activity of sorting fact from fiction :)

 

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5 minutes ago, Wallygator said:

Because effective communication can occur regardless of what is or is not said.

I ponder how one effectively communicates nothing without saying nothing.

It's obvious that parts of the community won't accept "It's not your business" on this subject, so just what is Squad supposed to say?  Other members here won't accept anything less than Squad and devs stating that Squad is a horrible employer.  Squad cannot win.  The only way for them to stop this is to say that they are wrong and evil.  No matter how much they might be right, or how much it's nobody's business but theirs, people won't shut up about it unless "Squad is bad" gets said by someone with some sort of authority.

 

8 minutes ago, Wallygator said:

the sequence of events did not occur in a manner characteristic of a controlled information release.

Squad is no more under the obligation to release that information than they are to release those selfies, or paint your fence, or wash your dog, or teach your children trigonometry, or schedule the cake delivery at your birthday party.

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28 minutes ago, razark said:

I ponder how one effectively communicates nothing without saying nothing.

It's obvious that parts of the community won't accept "It's not your business" on this subject, so just what is Squad supposed to say?  Other members here won't accept anything less than Squad and devs stating that Squad is a horrible employer.  Squad cannot win.  The only way for them to stop this is to say that they are wrong and evil.  No matter how much they might be right, or how much it's nobody's business but theirs, people won't shut up about it unless "Squad is bad" gets said by someone with some sort of authority.

 

Squad is no more under the obligation to release that information than they are to release those selfies, or paint your fence, or wash your dog, or teach your children trigonometry, or schedule the cake delivery at your birthday party.

To hopefully close this point and to be explicit in regards to your specific pondering --->  When a policeman draws his weapon on you and points it at your face without saying a word. That is a clear real world example (not a straw man) of tacit communication occurring without a spoken word.  

Now, to once again reposition this into context with the OP - when squad bungled the reddit/forum/then-not-forum/then-forum-again posting of the devs 'notice to quit' it tacitly communicated that there was no coordination of their messaging - that the comms stream was not under their control.

I consider this a characteristic (not a value judgement) of the events as they happened.

I agree with you on one point:  Squad cannot "win", simply because there is nothing to win, only things to lose.  There is no zero-sum game occurring here.

Finally, as a bit of constructive feedback: Your style of hyperbolic language is very likely not helping you clearly communicate what you are trying to say (Unless it actually is EXACTLY what you are trying to say).  I therefore could choose to interpret your tacit communication (constant hyperbolic language and ping pong postings for example) as an attempt to obfuscate the core (and in my opinion valuable) discussion regarding Squads communications style (which I do not think you're attempting).  If may frankly be just the opposite.  But this is now a classic example of tacit communications interfering with explicit communications. I sincerely hope this helps not just you but everyone else in the thread as we all try to be clear and explicit in our messaging.  No one ever gets it completely right all the time - even me, you and Squad.

What @Mycroft has undertaken (and I sincerely commend him for it) is to apply a level of structure surrounding the events and to apply a logical filter to all the various informant elements that have come into existence - to make facts and non-facts as explicit as possible.  Nicely done @Mycroft!

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A dev, a community rep and the project manager have all posted here addressing this. The posts were clear and to the point. 

How much more do you need?  Some people left. Others have been or are being hired. 1.2 on Tuesday. That's all you need to know. I mean, in talking about "clear communications from squad" what is it you're after?  Tax statements? Quarterly P&L reports?  The latest TPS report?  This has been addressed. What more could you possibly want to know??

Edited by MaxPeck

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2 hours ago, MaxPeck said:

A dev, a community rep and the project manager have all posted here addressing this. The posts were clear and to the point. 

How much more do you need?  Some people left. Others have been or are being hired. 1.2 on Tuesday. That's all you need to know. I mean, in talking about "clear communications from squad" what is it you're after?  Tax statements? Quarterly P&L reports?  The latest TPS report?  This has been addressed. What more could you possibly want to know??

I agree, although ungagging the released devs and letting us hear everything directly from them would be the best outcome for me.

Otherwise, it smells (maybe unfairly so, but still) similar to Kojima x Konami and doubts cannot be avoided. At least we're not getting KSP with zombies. :D

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I find it kind of ironic that the people who are still arguing are the folks who were against people asking for more info. The people who wanted more info got it. Who cares?

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4 hours ago, MaxPeck said:

What more could you possibly want to know??

At this point, I think the only thing I want to know is what is the plan for 1.3? It seems like Squad might have plans for announcement with the 1.2 release on Tuesday, so I guess the only thing for now is to be patient.

I think some, and possibly many, of the doubts could have avoided if Squad had said a little more than: (paraphrasing) We're fine and we have more devs than ever. I dont think providing names and biographies of the current team with detailed plans of 1.3 is necessary; I think a head count of number of coders, number of artists, etc. currently at Squad along with a very general idea of what 1.3 is intended to be (since Squad mentioned it's already in development) would satisfy many of the concerns people have expressed.

I'm not demanding this information, or arguing that we deserve it or don't deserve it, I just believe it could help the situation without hurting Squad. From my seat in a comfy armchair where I can quarterback, it seems like a win-win proposition to me.

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3 hours ago, Andem said:

I find it kind of ironic that the people who are still arguing are the folks who were against people asking for more info. The people who wanted more info got it. Who cares?

I couldn't agree more!

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Quote

Thing is, paying customers have certain rights. One of which is to ask and be clearly informed of the health and status of a product or company. 

"Hi, Coca Cola company? I drank a can of your stuff this morning, so please tell me how many people left your business this week, did they quit or were they fired, and if fired, why were they fired?" 

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3 hours ago, Andem said:

I find it kind of ironic that the people who are still arguing are the folks who were against people asking for more info. The people who wanted more info got it. Who cares?

Yup. People wanted more info. Squad gave more info. I'm not sure why this is still going on.  

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1 hour ago, Vanamonde said:

"Hi, Coca Cola company? I drank a can of your stuff this morning, so please tell me how many people left your business this week, did they quit or were they fired, and if fired, why were they fired?" 

Yes, but to be fair to some of the more reasonable inquires, Squad has been far more open with its customers than Coke.  Squad has almost shot themselves in the foot with the weekly devnotes, reddit interaction, and usual blog post from the actual persons leaving the company.  People expect communication even if it isn't required.

Personally, I'm over it and don't know why I keep checking these threads.

Edited by klgraham1013

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4 hours ago, Vanamonde said:

"Hi, Coca Cola company? I drank a can of your stuff this morning, so please tell me how many people left your business this week, did they quit or were they fired, and if fired, why were they fired?" 

Don't forget to ask how much they make and how many hours their work.

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20 hours ago, Mycroft said:

I think we need to nip this discussion in the bud: 

Fact: People have the right to ask 'why' about the developers leaving.

Fact: SQUAD has the right to withhold any answer.

And no one has the right to an answer.

Heh.  I think this discussion is so far past "the bud" that this comment made me chuckle. (good-naturedly, not mockingly, Mycroft)

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sarbian uploaded dev mechjeb build 10 hours ago,I think this is forum activity.

 

 

Edited by omelaw

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