[Minimum KSP version - 1.12] Kerbal Inventory System (KIS) v1.29

[Loren Pechtel]

9 hours ago, SpacedInvader said:

Is there any way to "cheat" a wrench into an inventory? I've just landed my first Mun mission with a full cargo of surface experiments from the SEP mod, only to find out that the wrench I had placed in one of the seat inventories has mysteriously disappeared. I've gone back to the saved craft in the VAB to double check that it was indeed saved into the inventory and it is there, but it is nowhere to be found on the landing craft or in the inventories of any of my crew. Since I'm using Kerbal Construction Time, the next possible time I could launch a ship up here again is more than 250 days, so I really don't want to waste half the science from this mission thanks solely to an evaporating wrench...

I've had problems with missing inventory also.  I don't know if it's an answer for your case but when I found myself without a stupid little part on Minmus I put the part, a wrench and some extra fuel on a rocket that would be orbiting but not landing.  An engineer got kicked out the airlock with the stuff and landed on his jetpack.  (No careful rendezvous needed as his target was a rover that could come to him.)

I've never tried a jetpack landing on the Mun but I have done a jetpack takeoff so a landing certainly is possible.  Extra fuel is mandatory for the Mun, your pack doesn't have the Δv.  If you're good enough you can do a one way trip on Minmus without.  (Note that if your objective has a cockpit you can reload your backpack and thus return to orbit.)

Basic Orbit will make jetpack orbital operations a lot easier.  MechJeb will not help.  Better Burn Time will give you a time to impact but will not calculate a suicide burn.

[SpacedInvader]

2 hours ago, Loren Pechtel said:

I've had problems with missing inventory also.  I don't know if it's an answer for your case but when I found myself without a stupid little part on Minmus I put the part, a wrench and some extra fuel on a rocket that would be orbiting but not landing.  An engineer got kicked out the airlock with the stuff and landed on his jetpack.  (No careful rendezvous needed as his target was a rover that could come to him.)

I've never tried a jetpack landing on the Mun but I have done a jetpack takeoff so a landing certainly is possible.  Extra fuel is mandatory for the Mun, your pack doesn't have the Δv.  If you're good enough you can do a one way trip on Minmus without.  (Note that if your objective has a cockpit you can reload your backpack and thus return to orbit.)

Basic Orbit will make jetpack orbital operations a lot easier.  MechJeb will not help.  Better Burn Time will give you a time to impact but will not calculate a suicide burn.

That is a far more Kerbal solution than I'm probably ever going to use, but I like it :P. What I ended up doing is some save file editing to place the contents of the original seat directly into Bill's inventory. Save file editing is not my favorite activity, but it worked well enough.

[Loren Pechtel]

20 minutes ago, SpacedInvader said:

That is a far more Kerbal solution than I'm probably ever going to use, but I like it :P. What I ended up doing is some save file editing to place the contents of the original seat directly into Bill's inventory. Save file editing is not my favorite activity, but it worked well enough.

Since I tried the jetpack as ascent stage strategy I haven't put return stages on most things I've sent to the moons.  When the scientists are done they gather up their data and take off.  Obviously I still need  ascent engines for the fueling base I'm building on Minmus, though.  I also put an ascent engine on the 12-man bus I used for a flagging party.

[IgorZ]

22 hours ago, SpacedInvader said:

Is there any way to "cheat" a wrench into an inventory? I've just landed my first Mun mission with a full cargo of surface experiments from the SEP mod, only to find out that the wrench I had placed in one of the seat inventories has mysteriously disappeared. I've gone back to the saved craft in the VAB to double check that it was indeed saved into the inventory and it is there, but it is nowhere to be found on the landing craft or in the inventories of any of my crew. Since I'm using Kerbal Construction Time, the next possible time I could launch a ship up here again is more than 250 days, so I really don't want to waste half the science from this mission thanks solely to an evaporating wrench...

A usual mistake people do with KIS is assuming that pod's seat inventory is just a free version of a container inventory. This is not the case. Pod's inventory is only fulfilled with items if there is a crew member at the seat during the launch. When this is not the case you get nothing on the orbit. When you put items into pod's seat inventory make sure there is a crew member taking off from Kerbin at this seat.

[SpacedInvader]

Just now, IgorZ said:

A usual mistake people do with KIS is assuming that pod's seat inventory is just a free version of a container inventory. This is not the case. Pod's inventory is only fulfilled with items if there is a crew member at the seat during the launch. When this is not the case you get nothing on the orbit. When you put items into pod's seat inventory make sure there is a crew member taking off from Kerbin at this seat.

That's probable where things went wrong then since the items were placed into the lander's inventory, but all my crew launched in the main pod. This might be something someone needs to either add to the wiki or the manual as this is quite counter intuitive.

[IgorZ]

4 minutes ago, SpacedInvader said:

That's probable where things went wrong then since the items were placed into the lander's inventory, but all my crew launched in the main pod. This might be something someone needs to either add to the wiki or the manual as this is quite counter intuitive.

Only few people read wiki. Most of the players rely on their common sense, and it fails here (which I admit). I'm open to consider alternative approach assigning items to the pod's seat in the editor. May be we can re-phrase inventory string to make people think the items will only be added if there is a crew member assigned to the place? Ideas?

[SpacedInvader]

1 minute ago, IgorZ said:

Only few people read wiki. Most of the players rely on their common sense, and it fails here (which I admit). I'm open to consider alternative approach assigning items to the pod's seat in the editor. May be we can re-phrase inventory string to make people think the items will only be added if there is a crew member assigned to the place? Ideas?

Could be as simple as putting "(Must be crewed at launch to acquire items)" next to each seat inventory button?

[IgorZ]

2 minutes ago, SpacedInvader said:

Could be as simple as putting "(Must be crewed at launch to acquire items)" next to each seat inventory button?

It won't fit the context menu width constrains. Though, a string like this can be added into the inventory window.

[Wyzard]

6 minutes ago, IgorZ said:

May be we can re-phrase inventory string to make people think the items will only be added if there is a crew member assigned to the place? Ideas?

Maybe just change the button label from "Seat 0 Inventory" to "Crew 0 Inventory" as a hint that the stuff is held by the kerbal, not the chair.  Or, to trim down @SpacedInvader's suggestion a little, put something like "(NEEDS CREW)" at the end of the button label if the seat doesn't currently have a kerbal assigned to it.

[SpacedInvader]

2 minutes ago, IgorZ said:

It won't fit the context menu width constrains. Though, a string like this can be added into the inventory window.

I'm thinking that's probably the best approach as it guarantees that the information is presented and I can't think of a way to present the information in a foolproof way within the short constraints of the right-click menu.

Just now, Wyzard said:

Maybe just change the button label from "Seat 0 Inventory" to "Crew 0 Inventory" as a hint that the stuff is held by the kerbal, not the chair.  Or, to trim down @SpacedInvader's suggestion a little, put something like "(NEEDS CREW)" at the end of the button label if the seat doesn't currently have a kerbal assigned to it.

Saying "(NEEDS LAUNCH CREW)" *might* cut it, but nothing will be accomplished if its just hinted at as crew vs seat doesn't amount to any real difference.

[IgorZ]

Created an issue. Feel free to comment your ideas there.

Edited February 6, 2017 by IgorZ

[Loren Pechtel]

9 hours ago, IgorZ said:

A usual mistake people do with KIS is assuming that pod's seat inventory is just a free version of a container inventory. This is not the case. Pod's inventory is only fulfilled with items if there is a crew member at the seat during the launch. When this is not the case you get nothing on the orbit. When you put items into pod's seat inventory make sure there is a crew member taking off from Kerbin at this seat.

This does not explain the time I found my stuff missing.  It was only a minor annoyance, I didn't try too hard to figure out what happened to it.

[pellinor]

12 hours ago, IgorZ said:

Only few people read wiki. Most of the players rely on their common sense, and it fails here (which I admit). I'm open to consider alternative approach assigning items to the pod's seat in the editor. May be we can re-phrase inventory string to make people think the items will only be added if there is a crew member assigned to the place? Ideas?

My favorite would be a way to say "glue a screwdriver to every kerbal skilled to use it". Like I do a one-time payment for all of them and then never get to see an engineer without his tool again.

Especially with screwdrivers, my peeves are that
* they are easy to forget (saved vessels tend to forget their passengers, and they might end up on different seats next time)
* Kerbals tend to lose them inside inflatable parts
* spares take lots of space because they are not stackable
* once they are unlocked, I see no reason to ever send an engineer without one. This is the most important one because it makes the concept feel like artificial difficulty.
 

Edited February 6, 2017 by pellinor

[SpacedInvader]

6 hours ago, pellinor said:

My favorite would be a way to say "glue a screwdriver to every kerbal skilled to use it". Like I do a one-time payment for all of them and then never get to see an engineer without his tool again.

Especially with screwdrivers, my peeves are that
* they are easy to forget (saved vessels tend to forget their passengers, and they might end up on different seats next time)
* Kerbals tend to lose them inside inflatable parts
* spares take lots of space because they are not stackable
* once they are unlocked, I see no reason to ever send an engineer without one. This is the most important one because it makes the concept feel like artificial difficulty.
 

I guess an outgrowth of that might be to just include a "basic toolkit" with every command module in its own separate inventory so you don't have to manually add the two tools you will literally *always* need with KIS.

[mikerl]

Another option would be to use pod inventories for all crewable parts.  This would allow for empty pods to be launched with parts in them, and only the designated kerbal will remove the item from said pod.  It does have the extra step of having to actually remove the item while on EVA.  Each crewable part would then need to have kerbal inventory times number of crew for total amount of inventory.  the only real change would be to disable editing the kerbal's inventory in the editor.

[Loren Pechtel]

3 minutes ago, mikerl said:

Another option would be to use pod inventories for all crewable parts.  This would allow for empty pods to be launched with parts in them, and only the designated kerbal will remove the item from said pod.  It does have the extra step of having to actually remove the item while on EVA.  Each crewable part would then need to have kerbal inventory times number of crew for total amount of inventory.  the only real change would be to disable editing the kerbal's inventory in the editor.

How about a much simpler approach--remove the parts.  Engineers have tools, period.

[Wyzard]

24 minutes ago, mikerl said:

Another option would be to use pod inventories for all crewable parts.  (…)  Each crewable part would then need to have kerbal inventory times number of crew for total amount of inventory.

Doesn't have to be a full kerbal-sized inventory.  Since you're talking about something separate from the kerbal's own inventory space, and the main use-case for this is probably the wrenches and screwdrivers, it could just be a "glove box" with a few liters of storage.

[mikerl]

16 minutes ago, Wyzard said:

Doesn't have to be a full kerbal-sized inventory.  Since you're talking about something separate from the kerbal's own inventory space, and the main use-case for this is probably the wrenches and screwdrivers, it could just be a "glove box" with a few liters of storage.

Most likely, a little bit of inventory is all that would be needed, I suggested changing from editing kerbal inventories to a pod inventory in case someone actually does like to launch with more could still do so.  IIRC there is a mod somwhere that did just that, i like that idea better if KIS shipped with a small radial box, I use a couple from USI, which is where I prefer to put my tools to ensure I don't forget them.

[SpacedInvader]

37 minutes ago, mikerl said:

Most likely, a little bit of inventory is all that would be needed, I suggested changing from editing kerbal inventories to a pod inventory in case someone actually does like to launch with more could still do so.  IIRC there is a mod somwhere that did just that, i like that idea better if KIS shipped with a small radial box, I use a couple from USI, which is where I prefer to put my tools to ensure I don't forget them.

I've been using the boxes from SEP so far, but one thing about such boxes is that they can cause issues with craft balancing. I do like the idea of switching from a per-seat inventory to a per-pod inventory as it seems to make more sense. First of all, you don't have the issue where the inventory only exists if there is a kerbal sitting there at launch, then you also allow for that inventory to be more generalized instead of forcing a specific kerbal to sit in each seat. In addition its a little bit of a realism bonus as well since its unlikely a kerbal would carry his whole inventory from launch until use rather than pulling it from an on-board storage prior to use.

Edited February 7, 2017 by SpacedInvader

[pellinor]

I need to officially retreat my complaint because there already are config options to remove the need for screwdrivers. Pretty sure that I already tried this and did not get it to work, must have been an error on my side.

@KISConfig[KISConfig]:FINAL{
  @EvaPickup {
    %allowPartAttach = true
    %allowStaticAttach = true
    %allowSnapAttach = true
  }
}

However while digging through configs I found something else to discuss (from settings.cfg bundled with KIS):

StackableModule
{
	moduleName = TweakScale // mod
}

My understanding of this whitelist was always that it is supposed to protect KIS from messing up persistent data (like the fuel amounts in tanks). TweakScale is a prime example of persistent data: stacking parts of different scale makes them the same, which messes up size, mass, cost and whatever else. @IgorZ could you clarify the sense behind this?

[voicey99]

Is it a known issue for antennas (physicsless parts?) to be destroyed on being attached? Because I launched all 5 of my deep space probes with no antennas or parachutes by mistake but, after going up to try and remedy that by screwing a tiny radial chute and an 88-88 onto each one, the chute went on fine but on attaching the antenna the game hangs for a couple of seconds (expected) before there seems to be (judging from the loud bang from collisionfx) a violent physics kick that results in the dish breaking into a shower of high-velocity bits of antenna (so the antenna is "broken" but still attached). The dishes only explode on being attached to a size 0 part, and can be attached to size 1 and above parts without issue. While cumbersome, they can however safely be attached when extended (after first being attached to a larger part and then grabbed and re-attached somewhere else while still extended).

Here's a video of what I mean, and a save to try it out on if you're willing to use USI-SrvPack, USI-Core, MJ and NFC with it. I would provide the output.log as well, but it stopped logging anything at all after a hard out-of-mem crash two weeks ago.

[pellinor]

Can someone confirm problems when using KIS to detach docked docking ports? The detached port still shows an "undock" button, and I get an exception when pressing it:

StackOverflowException: The requested operation caused a stack overflow.
  at ModuleDockingNode.Undock () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at ModuleDockingNode.Undock () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at ModuleDockingNode.Undock () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
    ...

This is from a fairly modded career save, and only happens if the ports came together through docking. I remember similar problems when detaching clawed parts from a claw. Likely those attachments are different from normal attach nodes, and KIS would need some specific code to handle them. Getting this to work would be very useful because detaching single parts from the right click menu of a claw often makes them fly away too fast to easily catch them.

19 minutes ago, voicey99 said:

Is it a known issue for antennas (physicsless parts?) to be destroyed on being attached?

I occasionally see issues where parts that usually allow clipping seemed to repel each other when surface attaching. That might be the same issue you have, colliders being checked against each other when they usually are not. My case was not completely deterministic, it worked after several tries.

[Loren Pechtel]

45 minutes ago, voicey99 said:

Is it a known issue for antennas (physicsless parts?) to be destroyed on being attached? Because I launched all 5 of my deep space probes with no antennas or parachutes by mistake but, after going up to try and remedy that by screwing a tiny radial chute and an 88-88 onto each one, the chute went on fine but on attaching the antenna the game hangs for a couple of seconds (expected) before there seems to be (judging from the loud bang from collisionfx) a violent physics kick that results in the dish breaking into a shower of high-velocity bits of antenna (so the antenna is "broken" but still attached). The dishes only explode on being attached to a size 0 part, and can be attached to size 1 and above parts without issue. While cumbersome, they can however safely be attached when extended (after first being attached to a larger part and then grabbed and re-attached somewhere else while still extended).

Here's a video of what I mean, and a save to try it out on if you're willing to use USI-SrvPack, USI-Core, MJ and NFC with it. I would provide the output.log as well, but it stopped logging anything at all after a hard out-of-mem crash two weeks ago.

No, as I have attached a 88-88 to a rover.  I dropped it on the ground multiple times before success, but the places where I dropped it were also a pain in the VAB.  I ended up attaching it to a no-longer-needed docking port and it worked correctly.

[IgorZ]

2 hours ago, voicey99 said:

Is it a known issue for antennas (physicsless parts?) to be destroyed on being attached? Because I launched all 5 of my deep space probes with no antennas or parachutes by mistake but, after going up to try and remedy that by screwing a tiny radial chute and an 88-88 onto each one, the chute went on fine but on attaching the antenna the game hangs for a couple of seconds (expected) before there seems to be (judging from the loud bang from collisionfx) a violent physics kick that results in the dish breaking into a shower of high-velocity bits of antenna (so the antenna is "broken" but still attached). The dishes only explode on being attached to a size 0 part, and can be attached to size 1 and above parts without issue. While cumbersome, they can however safely be attached when extended (after first being attached to a larger part and then grabbed and re-attached somewhere else while still extended).

That's indeed the collider issue, and it's assumed to be handled in the code. I'll try to reproduce it on stock parts. Meanwhile, could you please try the following:

1. Reproduce the scenario on the same target part (kind of modded fuel tank?) but on the surface (e.g. on launch pad).
2. Reproduce the scenario on a stock part. Can you attach the antenna om some other part of your station?

[IgorZ]

On 06.02.2017 at 10:24 AM, pellinor said:

My favorite would be a way to say "glue a screwdriver to every kerbal skilled to use it". Like I do a one-time payment for all of them and then never get to see an engineer without his tool again.

Especially with screwdrivers, my peeves are that
* they are easy to forget (saved vessels tend to forget their passengers, and they might end up on different seats next time)
* Kerbals tend to lose them inside inflatable parts
* spares take lots of space because they are not stackable
* once they are unlocked, I see no reason to ever send an engineer without one. This is the most important one because it makes the concept feel like artificial difficulty.
 

 

23 hours ago, Loren Pechtel said:

How about a much simpler approach--remove the parts.  Engineers have tools, period.

Removing the tools completely doesn't seem to be the right approach. They take space and have mass, and player may forget to put them into the inventory but it's not an "inconvenience", it's a part of gameplay. If you forgot to equip your engineers with the right tools then it's your fault as the program manager.  You've made a mistake, so you have to fix it now

Speaking about convenience. KIS has an auto-add feature. It can probably be enhanced to do a skill check in career games.

I also admit that having a small "glovebox" inventory in each pod might be a good idea. As well as making screwdriver stackable since it doesn't have persisted state.