IgorZ

[1.7.3] Kerbal Inventory System (KIS) v1.22

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3 hours ago, pellinor said:

My understanding of this whitelist was always that it is supposed to protect KIS from messing up persistent data (like the fuel amounts in tanks). TweakScale is a prime example of persistent data: stacking parts of different scale makes them the same, which messes up size, mass, cost and whatever else. @IgorZ could you clarify the sense behind this?

That was a compromise. TweakScale installs module to a lot of stock and third-party parts making them unstackable. People are constantly asking why the parts are not stackable and usually it's either USI or TweakScale mods that added custom modules.

I have ideas how to improve stack logic and deprecate the whitelist altogether. Though, it's not in the priority list.

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20 minutes ago, IgorZ said:

 

Removing the tools completely doesn't seem to be the right approach. They take space and have mass, and player may forget to put them into the inventory but it's not an "inconvenience", it's a part of gameplay. If you forgot to equip your engineers with the right tools then it's your fault as the program manager.  You've made a mistake, so you have to fix it now :)

Speaking about convenience. KIS has an auto-add feature. It can probably be enhanced to do a skill check in career games.

I also admit that having a small "glovebox" inventory in each pod might be a good idea. As well as making screwdriver stackable since it doesn't have persisted state.

Forgetting to put them in is one thing but we have multiple cases of people who did put them in and they vanished.

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2 minutes ago, Loren Pechtel said:

Forgetting to put them in is one thing but we have multiple cases of people who did put them in and they vanished.

That's, obviously, a bug. And we're talking about the design. Once we figured out how to reproduce this bug I'll do my best to fix it. The problem at this moment is lack of the reproduce steps.

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2 minutes ago, Loren Pechtel said:

Forgetting to put them in is one thing but we have multiple cases of people who did put them in and they vanished.

I've been bitten by the issue with inventory disappearing when a kerbal enters an inflatable part, but the real problem was just that I didn't discover the problem until much later, after I'd made lots of progress in other areas, so it wasn't feasible to go back to an old save just to get my screwdriver back.  Even if the problem can't be fixed "properly", it'd be a big help if there were a warning message of some sort — "hey, you're trying to enter a part that will make your inventory disappear, is that OK?" — so that I can click Cancel and go stash my items somewhere first.

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2 minutes ago, Wyzard said:

I've been bitten by the issue with inventory disappearing when a kerbal enters an inflatable part, but the real problem was just that I didn't discover the problem until much later, after I'd made lots of progress in other areas, so it wasn't feasible to go back to an old save just to get my screwdriver back.  Even if the problem can't be fixed "properly", it'd be a big help if there were a warning message of some sort — "hey, you're trying to enter a part that will make your inventory disappear, is that OK?" — so that I can click Cancel and go stash my items somewhere first.

What inflatable mod specifically was involved? Can you reliable reproduce the issue at the launchpad with minimum mods installed?

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8 minutes ago, Wyzard said:

I've been bitten by the issue with inventory disappearing when a kerbal enters an inflatable part, but the real problem was just that I didn't discover the problem until much later, after I'd made lots of progress in other areas, so it wasn't feasible to go back to an old save just to get my screwdriver back.  Even if the problem can't be fixed "properly", it'd be a big help if there were a warning message of some sort — "hey, you're trying to enter a part that will make your inventory disappear, is that OK?" — so that I can click Cancel and go stash my items somewhere first.

Mine didn't even involve that.  I put equipment for an engineer on the rocket, when I went to kick him out the airlock over Minmus he had nothing.  I tried it again with the next mission, it worked as expected.

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15 minutes ago, IgorZ said:

What inflatable mod specifically was involved? Can you reliable reproduce the issue at the launchpad with minimum mods installed?

I had it happen with the MKS Ranger mini-hab, and yes, it's reproducible on the launchpad with only MKS and KIS installed — I just checked using the latest versions of each.

I can send you a save or craft file if you want, but really you should be able to just build anything with a Ranger mini-hab on it.  (Note that this part only allows node attachment, so you need to put it on something with a side attachment node low to the ground.  The MKS Scout lander module, in the Ground category, works well for this.)

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3 hours ago, Wyzard said:

I had it happen with the MKS Ranger mini-hab, and yes, it's reproducible on the launchpad with only MKS and KIS installed — I just checked using the latest versions of each.

I can send you a save or craft file if you want, but really you should be able to just build anything with a Ranger mini-hab on it.  (Note that this part only allows node attachment, so you need to put it on something with a side attachment node low to the ground.  The MKS Scout lander module, in the Ground category, works well for this.)

Yeah, was able to reproduce it. There is an old bug, actually. I found and reported it once but then failed to reproduce.

So, this bug actually consists of two parts:

  1. Inflatable USI parts don't define pod inventories which is mandatory for the KIS to work.
  2. KIS throws NRE on an incompatible part and inventory get lost on save/load.

I can fix #2 by checking and not allowing transferring crew with non-empty personal inventories. As for #1 I still didn't find good way to fix it. The only way for now is asking pod author adding the modules in the part config since KIS cannot know number of crew members in an inflatable part (it's 0 on load).

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5 hours ago, IgorZ said:

That's indeed the collider issue, and it's assumed to be handled in the code. I'll try to reproduce it on stock parts. Meanwhile, could you please try the following:

  1. Reproduce the scenario on the same target part (kind of modded fuel tank?) but on the surface (e.g. on launch pad).
  2. Reproduce the scenario on a stock part. Can you attach the antenna om some other part of your station?

"Modded fuel tank"? That's an Oscar-B (stock). Regardless, it does this on the launchpad as well between the same parts, as well as ALL other stock size 0 parts (PB-X150, OKTO2, ESU etc.) both on the ground and in the air. Here's a 100% stock demo vessel to repro it, just try to attach the 88 in his inventory to the Oscar.

Edited by voicey99

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Seems like tweak scaled parts still take the room of the original sized part. For example I needed to attach three small wings to a craft stuck in orbit to safely get it to the ground (it always flips prograde, which makes it too aerodynamic to slow down enough in the atmosphere). I attach the wing to the rescue craft, scale it down, and drag the wings into the inventory. It still takes the same amount of space as the full sized wing. It just now occurred to me, I don't know in which scale the wing is stored in the inventory... Either way, it would be nice if tweak scale was supported better.

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59 minutes ago, IgorZ said:

I can fix #2 by checking and not allowing transferring crew with non-empty personal inventories. As for #1 I still didn't find good way to fix it.

A fix for #1 would be a nice-to-have, but the fix for #2 is the important one IMO.  Preventing the kerbal from entering the part (or at least prompting for confirmation) will prevent the items from being accidentally lost.

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18 minutes ago, Luovahulluus said:

Seems like tweak scaled parts still take the room of the original sized part. For example I needed to attach three small wings to a craft stuck in orbit to safely get it to the ground (it always flips prograde, which makes it too aerodynamic to slow down enough in the atmosphere). I attach the wing to the rescue craft, scale it down, and drag the wings into the inventory. It still takes the same amount of space as the full sized wing. It just now occurred to me, I don't know in which scale the wing is stored in the inventory... Either way, it would be nice if tweak scale was supported better.

TweakScale was never fully supported. See this issue. There is a plan to support it, though.

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52 minutes ago, voicey99 said:

"Modded fuel tank"? That's an Oscar-B (stock). Regardless, it does this on the launchpad as well between the same parts, as well as ALL other stock size 0 parts (PB-X150, OKTO2, ESU etc.) both on the ground and in the air. Here's a 100% stock demo vessel to repro it, just try to attach the 88 in his inventory to the Oscar.

In my test it behaves very strangely. If part is pulled out of the inventory and attached then no effects show up. If I move the part around the physics effect may or may not show up depending on what was done with the part. It's really unusual behavior. I created a bug entry but for now I have no ideas what's wrong.

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Coming back to kerbal/pod inventory. I second the idea of a small glove-box in each pod, but keep the kerbal's inventory too (maybe made it visible only as an advanced tweakable ?).

I've just ask linuxgurugamer if he can add a test for the presence of screwdriver inside a ship in his great mod Extensive Engineer Report (I often forget it myself) :

 

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3 hours ago, IgorZ said:

In my test it behaves very strangely. If part is pulled out of the inventory and attached then no effects show up. If I move the part around the physics effect may or may not show up depending on what was done with the part. It's really unusual behavior. I created a bug entry but for now I have no ideas what's wrong.

Regarding the git issue, it's not just the Oscar, it's all Size 0 parts. That means PB-X150s, Experiment Storage Units, Small Inline RWs, OKTO2s, Z-200s-they (and seemingly some of the larger parts now as well) all produce the same physics kick when the 88-88 is attached. It's also the other way round for me-the effect always triggers on placing straight from the inventory but when the part is moved it still triggers but to a lesser extent (enough for the antenna to survive). Looking at it, my guess would be that KIS places the part slightly too far inside the other part's collider, and the physics kick is KSP moving parts around to compensate for that.

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6 hours ago, voicey99 said:

Looking at it, my guess would be that KIS places the part slightly too far inside the other part's collider, and the physics kick is KSP moving parts around to compensate for that.

KIS uses part's attach node info to get the right position. It's normal situation for many parts when their attach node is located inside the part's collider. E.g. it's the case for the ports and this antenna. Normally it's not a problem because game disables colliders between the vessel parts right before enabling physics on the vessel but when KIS attaches a new part there is a brief moment (2-3 fixed frame updates) when new part collides with a physical vessel. I had hard times fighting with this issue but it seems the problem is not solved for physicsless parts.

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On 2/7/2017 at 3:20 PM, pellinor said:

Can someone confirm problems when using KIS to detach docked docking ports? The detached port still shows an "undock" button, and I get an exception when pressing it:


StackOverflowException: The requested operation caused a stack overflow.
  at ModuleDockingNode.Undock () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at ModuleDockingNode.Undock () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0 
  at ModuleDockingNode.Undock () [0x00000] in <filename unknown>:0
    ...

This is from a fairly modded career save, and only happens if the ports came together through docking. I remember similar problems when detaching clawed parts from a claw. Likely those attachments are different from normal attach nodes, and KIS would need some specific code to handle them. Getting this to work would be very useful because detaching single parts from the right click menu of a claw often makes them fly away too fast to easily catch them.

That's a known issue with the docking ports. They don't like to be decoupled via KIS.

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@IgorZ Please, consider making at least the wrench usable by non-engineers, that way they are still needed for the bigger parts. Many missions are very crew limiting and the engineers are always at the bottom of the line

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12 minutes ago, EstebanLB said:

@IgorZ Please, consider making at least the wrench usable by non-engineers, that way they are still needed for the bigger parts. Many missions are very crew limiting and the engineers are always at the bottom of the line

I disagree.  You think a rocket built by a non-engineer is going to fly?!

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9 minutes ago, Loren Pechtel said:

I disagree.  You think a rocket built by a non-engineer is going to fly?!

You can't build a rocket with a wrench. You can only dettach or radially attach very small parts. For inline attach and bigger parts you need the electric screwdriver.

Also, you think a scientist or a pilot wouldn't know how to use a wrench?!

 

Edited by EstebanLB

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51 minutes ago, EstebanLB said:

Also, you think a scientist or a pilot wouldn't know how to use a wrench?!

For sure they know it but why do you believe they are skilled enough to attach a solar panel in EVA and properly connect it to the vessel's power lines? Not to mention RCS engines. If you believe every pilot or scientist can perform engineer's duty then why the engineers cannot do science or piloting? Don't you think a regular engineer should know how to use microscope or pull control levers :)

I bet thousands of people on this forum know how to use a wrench. Though, I doubt if there is one who will be able to go EVA and have the work done without many months of prior training. Same applies to science and piloting: you have to spend a lot of time training your skills before you could name yourself "scientist" or "pilot".

I see a challenge in separating skills in KSP. When you launch a mission you have to think who to send. Should you send a pilot and save on remote control module? Or should you send an engineer and deal with the signal issues? You can send both if you really need to but the mission will be twice more costly.

 

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12 minutes ago, IgorZ said:

For sure they know it but why do you believe they are skilled enough to attach a solar panel in EVA and properly connect it to the vessel's power lines? Not to mention RCS engines. If you believe every pilot or scientist can perform engineer's duty then why the engineers cannot do science or piloting? Don't you think a regular engineer should know how to use microscope or pull control levers :)

I bet thousands of people on this forum know how to use a wrench. Though, I doubt if there is one who will be able to go EVA and have the work done without many months of prior training. Same applies to science and piloting: you have to spend a lot of time training your skills before you could name yourself "scientist" or "pilot".

I see a challenge in separating skills in KSP. When you launch a mission you have to think who to send. Should you send a pilot and save on remote control module? Or should you send an engineer and deal with the signal issues? You can send both if you really need to but the mission will be twice more costly.

 

While I do completely and whole heartedly agree with this statement (I'm a building engineer by trade) I hope this statement doesn't come across in any other way than me intending to be helpful.

I also see the value in an "Easy" button" for a video game. As a suggestion, a MM patch supplied with KIS to enable all Kerbals to do the same duties would be possible wouldn't it? It would also potentially save you and many others the hassle of a discussion such as this one. Just add a patch commented out so it is not enabled by default. And then provide instructions in the OP to enable the patch? - This is just my humble 2 cents so please feel free to shoot me down on this one.

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18 minutes ago, V8jester said:

While I do completely and whole heartedly agree with this statement (I'm a building engineer by trade) I hope this statement doesn't come across in any other way than me intending to be helpful.

I also see the value in an "Easy" button" for a video game. As a suggestion, a MM patch supplied with KIS to enable all Kerbals to do the same duties would be possible wouldn't it? It would also potentially save you and many others the hassle of a discussion such as this one. Just add a patch commented out so it is not enabled by default. And then provide instructions in the OP to enable the patch? - This is just my humble 2 cents so please feel free to shoot me down on this one.

I'm not a hardcore player that builds a metropolis in Jool or something like that. What you say really fits my situation and thus my suggestion. It was easy enough to comment a line to get exactly what I wanted, though

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38 minutes ago, IgorZ said:

For sure they know it but why do you believe they are skilled enough to attach a solar panel in EVA and properly connect it to the vessel's power lines? Not to mention RCS engines. If you believe every pilot or scientist can perform engineer's duty then why the engineers cannot do science or piloting? Don't you think a regular engineer should know how to use microscope or pull control levers :)

I bet thousands of people on this forum know how to use a wrench. Though, I doubt if there is one who will be able to go EVA and have the work done without many months of prior training. Same applies to science and piloting: you have to spend a lot of time training your skills before you could name yourself "scientist" or "pilot".

I see a challenge in separating skills in KSP. When you launch a mission you have to think who to send. Should you send a pilot and save on remote control module? Or should you send an engineer and deal with the signal issues? You can send both if you really need to but the mission will be twice more costly.

 

Exactly.  These are high skill positions, you can't just substitute them.

I know how to turn a wrench and I do most around the house maintenance myself (hiring out anything where the result must look good, though.  My copper joints aren't as neat as a plumber's but they've delivered the water for 20 years without a leak) but no way would I pick up a wrench EVA!

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