allista

[1.7] Configurable Containers

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15 hours ago, Kolago said:

Drop down list for the Tank Types is still not scrolling down.

How come?! Have I missed your bugreport somewhere? :confused: I never knew there was such problem. And never encountered it...

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Hm... the main download site is (and will be as long as it exists) the SpaceDock.

I've updated GitHub releases last time because SpaceDock was having temporary troubles.

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1 minute ago, allista said:

Hm... the main download site is (and will be as long as it exists) the SpaceDock.

I've updated GitHub releases last time because SpaceDock was having temporary troubles.

 

oh kk, thanks

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On 11/14/2016 at 5:27 AM, allista said:

How come?! Have I missed your bugreport somewhere? :confused: I never knew there was such problem. And never encountered it...

I saw this post before I played last night and I putzed with it (on Windows).  I think what is happening is that you can't left click and drag on the scroll bar.  However, my mouse wheel does work depending on where I aim the mouse.

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1 hour ago, NeuroticGamer said:

I saw this post before I played last night and I putzed with it (on Windows).  I think what is happening is that you can't left click and drag on the scroll bar.  However, my mouse wheel does work depending on where I aim the mouse.

@allista I've experienced this issue as well. I'm unable to click on the scroll bar (not sure if you are supposed to?) but the main issue is that the scroll wheel on the mouse only works if you are hovering directly over text. If you are off to either side or in-between tank types, then it won't scroll at all.

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Does this mod not support interstellar fuels like hydrazine?  ie, fuels from IFS/KSPIE?  it doesn't appear to...?  Modular Fuel Tanks does, but that mod conflicts with this one.  And I can't install TCA without installing this one, or so it seems, so I have a huge problem now.  in 1.1.3 I could use KSPIE+MFT+TCA, and now there's a dependency chain preventing that.  I'd happily use this mod instead of MFT, but it doesn't support KSPIE's fuels, which is a requirement.. any way around this?

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9 hours ago, ss8913 said:

Does this mod not support interstellar fuels like hydrazine?  ie, fuels from IFS/KSPIE?  it doesn't appear to...?  Modular Fuel Tanks does, but that mod conflicts with this one.  And I can't install TCA without installing this one, or so it seems, so I have a huge problem now.  in 1.1.3 I could use KSPIE+MFT+TCA, and now there's a dependency chain preventing that.  I'd happily use this mod instead of MFT, but it doesn't support KSPIE's fuels, which is a requirement.. any way around this?

I could be wrong but I presume you could add an MM patch that provides the KSPIE fuels if they aren't already there.

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On 15.11.2016 at 4:43 PM, Nori said:

@allista I've experienced this issue as well. I'm unable to click on the scroll bar (not sure if you are supposed to?) but the main issue is that the scroll wheel on the mouse only works if you are hovering directly over text. If you are off to either side or in-between tank types, then it won't scroll at all.

Thanks! After reading this I was able to scroll down. This drop down list needs a fix to work correctly.

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On 11/15/2016 at 6:43 PM, Nori said:

@allista I've experienced this issue as well. I'm unable to click on the scroll bar (not sure if you are supposed to?) but the main issue is that the scroll wheel on the mouse only works if you are hovering directly over text. If you are off to either side or in-between tank types, then it won't scroll at all.

Ah, now I understand! Unfortunately, this bad behaviour is expected: the dropdown list was made by some David Tregoning a while ago; it uses a hack to prevent click-throughs when it is opened. That same hack prevents the proper use of scrolling. I've tried to think something up, but couldn't solve it. If it's a big issue in your game I'll just switch from dropdown list to a plane scrollview embedded in the main window.

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14 hours ago, ss8913 said:

Does this mod not support interstellar fuels like hydrazine?  ie, fuels from IFS/KSPIE?  it doesn't appear to...?  Modular Fuel Tanks does, but that mod conflicts with this one.  And I can't install TCA without installing this one, or so it seems, so I have a huge problem now.  in 1.1.3 I could use KSPIE+MFT+TCA, and now there's a dependency chain preventing that.  I'd happily use this mod instead of MFT, but it doesn't support KSPIE's fuels, which is a requirement.. any way around this?

No, KSPIE fuels (except liquid hydrogen) are not yet supported, but as @NeuroticGamer mentioned, adding this support is simple and straightforward, so you can do it faster than I probably will. See at the patches that are already included in the mod.

Also, TCA does not require Configurable Containers at all. It depends only on AT_Utils,

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51 minutes ago, allista said:

Ah, now I understand! Unfortunately, this bad behaviour is expected: the dropdown list was made by some David Tregoning a while ago; it uses a hack to prevent click-throughs when it is opened. That same hack prevents the proper use of scrolling. I've tried to think something up, but couldn't solve it. If it's a big issue in your game I'll just switch from dropdown list to a plane scrollview embedded in the main window.

To keep the window small I prefer a simple field with left and right arrows to switch between saved tank configurations.

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20 hours ago, allista said:

No, KSPIE fuels (except liquid hydrogen) are not yet supported, but as @NeuroticGamer mentioned, adding this support is simple and straightforward, so you can do it faster than I probably will. See at the patches that are already included in the mod.

Also, TCA does not require Configurable Containers at all. It depends only on AT_Utils,

perhaps this is a CKAN issue then; AT_Utils requires Configurable Containers there.

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I was going to ask if it was possible to either easily , as a player, to edit a file so I could start adding tanks from my game that this doesn't support into it, or if there is a list of what mods this does support, as I know it is a very nice mod, I just am still trying to decide between this and Modular Fuel tanks, Though I have noticed some thins in MFT seem to vary compared to this, but I haven't fully decided which one I prefer, as I was using MFT when 1.2.1 hit because it worked but not CC until just recently it seems.

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adding tank types and new resources etc. is very easy.     this is by far the best "Tank switcher" mod there is right now.

 

there are many included examples of how to make tanks that support new resources, or tank configurations for ratios etc.  I also had a bit of an issue at the beginning but if you look into the included setup files it is pretty easy.   or if you have a specific question post it and I am sure it can be easily done.

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Once again I need your opinion/advices :rolleyes:

I'm currently developing the requested boiloff/active-cooling system. I've tried to just use the one from the CryoTanks, but soon understood that I want something more physically realistic (as usual). So I've added some simplified thermodynamics: like in the ModuleCoreHeat, the part is "divided" into the part per se and the "Core", i.e. the mass of the resource surrounded by insulation, which limits heat transfer between the two. This allows to have, say, a tank with the H2 at 20K attached to a probe core that should operate above -20C, or to a water tank. This also lowers the boiloff rate that, otherwise, is over the roof, as without insulation the whole ship is actually cooled.

This works perfectly, responding to external temperature changes and part heating; even the catching-up (after some time spent with some other craft) does not causes any trouble.

The active cooling is more difficult. The cooler watches at the temperature of the resource, and if it's above a threshold, pumps the excess energy to the part's skin, using some EC to do the work (I've modelled it as a non-ideal cooling Cranet cycle). So it eats EC and heats the part. But many other factors affect part's temperature, and the ship may have different generators to produce EC, often at expense of some other resources. Thus, to do the catching-up, I need to implement some kind of a hack, e.g. to first measure the actual EC/temperature change rates during normal operation, then apply them during a catch-up. This works when there's only one active cooler in the ship, and no other mod try to do the same thing. Another option is to not touch anything except the resource temperature (which is internal to this mod). This will produce a non-realistic discontinuity of operation, but at least it will be in tune with the basic KSP.

So, how would you feel about an active cooling system that cools the resource, but does not heat the ship up or consume electric charge while the ship is unloaded (e.g. you're at KSC, or working with other ships far away)?

As for the figures, I've tried to tune the insulation so that the boiloff rate is about that of the CryoTank's 0.05% per hour. The energy consumption of the cooling system is currently 3/5 times lower (about 3 EC/s to cool the Jumbo of LqdHydrogen), but it is also heavier than CryoTanks, so I guess it's ok.

Edited by allista

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personally I have never used the cryo fuels and cryo engines etc.  I have always had the mods installed but I have never used the parts yet.  However as a rule I usually prefer more realism, but it can be taken too far and be come more hassle than it is worth.

so my answer would be to make it as realistic as possible without having to reinvent the wheel.  as in if you can fudge it and make it "believable" that is probably better than more realistic but requiring hours of coding.

also, tedious micromanagement on the part of the player is no good.  if your solution requires constant input from the player do not use it.   what this means if I am forced to go back and revisit the craft every few hours/days what ever to be sure I power off a system or turn it back on that is no good.  I need to be able to let a craft ride the rails for as long as it needs to and not have to worry about it when I load it up again.  so if the solution is to have an active system that must be powered on and off constantly to balance the system that is no good.  in cases like this the entropy ruins the game.  it needs to be stable for as long as is needed.  it can still burn EC or what ever to run a pump or something,  it can still provide cooling by circulating the fuel into other parts or something like this.  but just be sure there is not a need to micro manage the system.  when I revisit the ship 10 years later as it passes the outer rim of the solar system and all the "catchup" is done the system needs to have a steady state result where I can calculate this part will consume xEC/second and I produce x+yEC/second so I will be fine.

 

I hope you understand what I am saying here but if you need more input, I can try for specific examples.  just as a quick example..  there are parts for TAC life support that use EC to covert water to oxygen and hydrogen, and another that will purify waste water back to usable water etc.  but they can't all just be turned on at the same time and left in a "closed system" as you are constantly needed to power on and off each individual part to maintain the balance.  this makes it necessary to over compensate so your kerbals do not all die while the ship is out on rails as it does background processing on them.  a simplified system that can just tell you upfront give me this much power and I will do my job is better even if it is not as realistic.   it still make the user think about their designs, understand the basic concept of the system, and engineer a solution without making the game tedious.

 

 

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Unrelated to the previous:

Could someone playing KSPIE do a sanity check of the added resources?

Specifically, if the resources correspond to the assigned TankTypes and if the unit/volume ratios (which are all 1 right now) give the expected amounts of resources for stock containers.

Here's the new TankType.cfg; to check it, replace the original ConfigurableContainers/TankTypes.cfg; you can also look through it using any text editor.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ltpheqcniutvfwb/TankConfigs.cfg?dl=0

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Hey... 

 

Another request.  can you integrate support for fuel tanks in the wings?

This mod was great for that, but it relies on Modular Fuel Tanks.  it would be nice if CC would add the fuel tanks to the wings as well.

 

EDIT:

hmm well upon trying my hand at a MM patch for this I looked into your .cfg files and it looks like you already do some of the Squad Wings.   so I guess the ones that are missing must just be overlooked, or are mod parts?

 

 

EDIT2:

what happens if a part has both   

Module[ModuleTankManager]  AND  Module[ModuleSwitchableTank]?

will this break things, or just have both options in the right click menu?

 

 

EDIT3:

Taking the MM patch directly from the Fuel wings mod and doing a quick conversion to CC gives me this.

Spoiler

@PART[sweptWing2,wingConnector,wingConnector2,airlinerTailFin,sweptWing]:FOR[ConfigurableContainers]

{

MODULE

{

name = ModuleTankManager

volume = 85*0.006173

DoCostPatch = True

DoMassPatch = True

 

TANK

{

TankType = LiquidChemicals

CurrentResource = LiquidFuel

InitialAmount = 1.0

Volume = 100.0

}

 

}

}

 

@PART[structuralWing,structuralWing2,wingConnector3,delta_small]:FOR[ConfigurableContainers]

{

MODULE

{

name = ModuleTankManager

volume = 50*0.006173

DoCostPatch = True

DoMassPatch = True

 

TANK

{

TankType = LiquidChemicals

CurrentResource = LiquidFuel

InitialAmount = 1.0

Volume = 100.0

}

 

}

}

 

@PART[wingConnector5,wingConnector4]:FOR[ConfigurableContainers]

{

MODULE

{

name = ModuleTankManager

volume = 20*0.006173

DoCostPatch = True

DoMassPatch = True

 

TANK

{

TankType = LiquidChemicals

CurrentResource = LiquidFuel

InitialAmount = 1.0

Volume = 100.0

}

 

}

}

 

 

@PART[deltaWing]:FOR[ConfigurableContainers]

{

MODULE

{

name = ModuleTankManager

volume = 90*0.006173

DoCostPatch = True

DoMassPatch = True

 

TANK

{

TankType = LiquidChemicals

CurrentResource = LiquidFuel

InitialAmount = 1.0

Volume = 100.0

}

 

}

}

 

@PART[sweptWing1]:FOR[ConfigurableContainers]

{

MODULE

{

name = ModuleTankManager

volume = 70*0.006173

DoCostPatch = True

DoMassPatch = True

 

TANK

{

TankType = LiquidChemicals

CurrentResource = LiquidFuel

InitialAmount = 1.0

Volume = 100.0

}

 

}

}

 

@PART[structuralWing3]:FOR[ConfigurableContainers]

{

MODULE

{

name = ModuleTankManager

volume = 15*0.006173

DoCostPatch = True

DoMassPatch = True

 

TANK

{

TankType = LiquidChemicals

CurrentResource = LiquidFuel

InitialAmount = 1.0

Volume = 100.0

}

 

}

}

 

@PART[structuralWing4]:FOR[ConfigurableContainers]

{

MODULE

{

name = ModuleTankManager

volume = 7*0.006173

DoCostPatch = True

DoMassPatch = True

 

TANK

{

TankType = LiquidChemicals

CurrentResource = LiquidFuel

InitialAmount = 1.0

Volume = 100.0

}

 

}

}

 

@PART[wingStrake]:FOR[ConfigurableContainers]

{

MODULE

{

name = ModuleTankManager

volume = 14*0.006173

DoCostPatch = True

DoMassPatch = True

 

TANK

{

TankType = LiquidChemicals

CurrentResource = LiquidFuel

InitialAmount = 1.0

Volume = 100.0

}

 

}

}

I am not sure if all the MM syntax is correct, or if I have done the conversion from what I assume was units of liquid fuel to cubic meters correctly.  But ya, here it is with the addition of some wing parts the original mod did not cover.   I will look at other wing parts from the various mods I have installed and add to this later.

Edited by Bit Fiddler

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On 11/24/2016 at 2:47 PM, allista said:

Unrelated to the previous:

Could someone playing KSPIE do a sanity check of the added resources?

Specifically, if the resources correspond to the assigned TankTypes and if the unit/volume ratios (which are all 1 right now) give the expected amounts of resources for stock containers.

Here's the new TankType.cfg; to check it, replace the original ConfigurableContainers/TankTypes.cfg; you can also look through it using any text editor.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ltpheqcniutvfwb/TankConfigs.cfg?dl=0

This tank config file seems to be very small and does not address the KSPIE resources at all... am I missing something?  ie, I was hoping to see Hydrazine in the liquid fuels section; it, plus none of the other KSPIE fuels, are visible to the mod that I can find.  Looking at the .cfg, I don't see how it would have made any difference past what this mod comes with stock, as far as enabling them...?

Also, CC seems to not handle the stock Big-S wings at all.

Edited by ss8913

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my previous post has a first run at adding CC to all the squad wings.   I am sure it needs fixing but you can give it a go and report/modify any changes that need to be made. 

 

First change that needs to be made is the initial amount 1 and volume 100 lines.  this is at odds with one another.    I was thinking that "initialamount = 1" was what made the tank "full" and the "volume = 100.0"  told it to use 100% of the previous defined max volume.  but this does not seem to be the case.

 

will look into this agin when I have time to sit and play with KSP again.

Edited by Bit Fiddler

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On 12/11/2016 at 8:57 AM, ss8913 said:

This tank config file seems to be very small and does not address the KSPIE resources at all... am I missing something?  ie, I was hoping to see Hydrazine in the liquid fuels section; it, plus none of the other KSPIE fuels, are visible to the mod that I can find.  Looking at the .cfg, I don't see how it would have made any difference past what this mod comes with stock, as far as enabling them...?

Heck, I've posted the wrong file! Not surprising, considering  the usual End of Year Apocalypse at work, which was the reason for my absence here.

The correct one is this: https://www.dropbox.com/s/gd569qkf25h8wrj/TankTypes.cfg?dl=0

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@Bit Fiddler, I'll look into the wings. One thing: I don't want to add the TankManager to wings, because, as I see it in terms of realism, adding construction elements inside a wing (i.e. tank walls) may disrupt the precalculated distribution of forces and made the wing less robust. Even more, I doubt one should be able to change the type of a tank inside of a wing (as with the type it will change its weight). So at most I would add a SwitchableTank with ChooseTankType=false option.

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1 hour ago, allista said:

@Bit Fiddler, I'll look into the wings. One thing: I don't want to add the TankManager to wings, because, as I see it in terms of realism, adding construction elements inside a wing (i.e. tank walls) may disrupt the precalculated distribution of forces and made the wing less robust. Even more, I doubt one should be able to change the type of a tank inside of a wing (as with the type it will change its weight). So at most I would add a SwitchableTank with ChooseTankType=false option.

This is an appreciated observation, for sure -- though I get the irony of CC adding fuel to wings that would then not be *configurable* :wink:  --though maybe the presence of the tank or not being controllable via CC would remove the need to use an overlapping mod to achieve that.

Edited by Beetlecat

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9 hours ago, Beetlecat said:

This is an appreciated observation, for sure -- though I get the irony of CC adding fuel to wings that would then not be *configurable* :wink:  --though maybe the presence of the tank or not being controllable via CC would remove the need to use an overlapping mod to achieve that.

You misunderstood me. Or it's me who understood the idea wrong, don't know. I talking about patches to existing parts with existing stock fuel resources which may be converted by  CC so that the resource could be switched withing the tank type. I.e. a stock wing has LF. With CC it also has LF, but it could be switched to Ox or MP; but not to store high-pressure xenon, for example.

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